consultation fees

[Shay]

Hello, this is Yona, Shay's partner.
I've been connecting with a few surgeons for opinions and recommendations for Shay.
Most surgeons, Boeree, Clavel, Bertagnoli, fees are very reasonable, under $300 US. However Dr. Zeegers is looking for over a $1000 US. I get the feeling he is a very caring, competent surgeon, however, I'm having a hard time handing over that amount. Unless we were pretty sure Shay would be going to Germany, we really need all our 1000's for the cost of surgery.
I'd love to hear from those of you who have had consultations if you think that Dr. Zeegers was worth it!
Maybe it's his way of weeding through.

Just looking for other's thoughts.
Yona

[jss]

Yona, I don't blame ya'll even a little for not wanting to fork out that kind of money for a consult. However, given Dr Zeegers' eminent reputation, his opinion would be quite valuable, especially if ya'll are getting conflicting surgical prescriptions. However, given the price tag, I wouldn't pursue his opinion unless I were getting conflicting surgical prescriptions, explicitly wanted one of the devices that he uses, was planning on him doing my surgery anyway, etc...

A thought on getting multiple other surgical opinions with no fee involved... I am aware of two firms that hook up US patients with medical/dental services in other countries. You fill out a questionnaire on their web site and then upload your images (usually a .iso image of the CD containing your images). They send your information around the globe to the aforementioned medical/dental providers that subscribe to their service. Those providers then give their opinion back to the firms (in hopes of getting your business) who then forward the results to you. Their business model is that you will select one of the providers that has supplied an opinion. Of course you're under no obligation to select one of those providers, but if you're lucky you'll get multiple converging opinions. If you are interested in pursuing that route, two reputable firms that provide that service are Healthbase and Planet Hospital.

Good luck, Jeff

[Harrison]

He is one of the best, for sure. But this is an exorbitant fee. Too much, given that other spine surgeons are available in the US and have been practicing spine surgery for 100 years, and some practicing ADR since 2000. That said, his clinic has helped many patients with other diagnostic tests not even mentioned on this site. Why is that?!

I am growing SO tired of German surgeons making millions of dollars recruiting so many patients from this web site. I'll save this rant for another time.

Yona, not to discourage you. Indeed, your questions are careful and supportive of your partner.

[Vicki_in_Florida]

I agree, unless you get conflicting reports from other surgeons first, I would hold out on zeegers for last.
I had Zigler, Clavel and Boeree all tell me the sane thing which was that I needed an L5-S1 ADR.
Best thing to do is read, read and understand your choices and make a really good list of questions to ask before you speak to any of them.

Everyone ends up choosing the doctor they were most comfortable with.
Do not choose by location of the doctor.
I would strongly suggest asking them specifically how many of the surgeries have they done that you need done.
If lumbar, ask how many lumbars have they done...meaning ALL discs.
how many M6 lumbars have they done
how many cervicals have they done..meaning total of all discs.
how many M6 cervicals have they done.
Do they have a staff?
How do you reach them?
Are they only accessible by email? if so, are you comfortable with that?
Don't just listen to them but test it. Email and see how long it takes to get a response.
Try calling, several times. does anyone answer or do you leave a voicemail and wait?
If you read enough surgical outcomes, you will start to see a list of questions to ask.

Listen to your gut! After speaking with them, you will know which one seems right to you.
Everyone on here who has gone through it, thinks there doc was the best choice.
You have cheerleaders for Clavel, Boeree, etc....because they had a good outcome.
In the end, you have to be comfortable with your choice and how the communication between you and the doc feels.

Not sure if you were needing lumbar or cervicals

I can tell you that for me personally, if money is tight and you want a really good consult, most people who have talked to Doctor Boeree will tell you that he is the most detailed when having your consult. Best money I have ever spent!
I found that he has done this so many times, most of your questions he will answer before you even have to bring it up. He explains why this and why that and his experience as to why he does something this way or that. Not all of them communicate as well.
Again, this was my experience and some people need more reassurance than others.

Hope this helps and good luck with your research.

[Shay]

Thank you Jss, Vicki, and Harrison, for your suggestions. Vicki, I can't believe you are so sweet to spend your valuable recoup time in helping someone you don't know! You all seem like you have good hearts.
Vicki, did you visit Dr. Zigler or does he do consultations via the phone also?
I couldn't find anything that to that effect.
We are going forward with the other consultations regardless.
thanks again,
Yona

[laid up doc]

My experience in Barcelona has been quite good so far - Dr Clavel is s super guy - he is more of a need to know sort, and will answer anything you ask from my experience (and i ask a LOT of questions, also being a physician).

I got 4 opinions in the US and 2 abroad - the US docs all recommended AGAINST a prodisc. one told me to look into Germany, but Boeree and Clavel do a lot of M6's w/o being a factory, so I talked to both of them.

And... here I am day 1 after my M6L. See my post-op thread that I'm about to start.

[JeffreyD]

In my experience, the time spent, attention to detail, level of expertise, etc. that you will receive from Dr. Zeegers if seeking a consultation is extremely valuable.
You will receive from Dr. Zeegers more than you can imagine, in terms of knowledge, compassion, wisdom, and most importantly....in terms of finding out a clear understanding of the unique circumstances concerning your spine problems.
I sincerely recommend that anyone who is serious about achieving an accurate diagnosis for their spine troubles contact Dr. Zeegers.
-Jeff

[JeffreyD]

Re: "I am growing SO tired of German surgeons making millions of dollars recruiting so many patients from this web site."

Dr. Zeegers is of course, Dutch, but your remark about German surgeons making "millions of dollars" from your site is outlandish (unless you are referring to Stenum). There are some doctors and surgeons practicing in Germany (Zeegers, Baumbach, Reul) who are literally saving the lives and quality of life for Americans who seek them for treatment, and your blanket statement is insulting (unless you are referring to Stenum).

Sure, go ahead and BAN me if you want to for speaking the truth....but I am speaking the absolute truth. You are either willfully deceiving people who are hurting, or you are woefully ill-informed.

-Jeff

[laid up doc]

i think Harrison is mostly referring to Stenum.

the fact is that there are a lot of us who cannot be helped in the US - for a variety of reasons.

it is prudent to consider overseas options if your options here are limited. whether it is prudent to pay $1000 for the opinion of one surgeon... is clearly a subject for debate.

bertagnoli, from what i know, doesn't offer as much of a DIFFERENT procedure compared to other surgeons who do not use the Prodisc. one can get a prodisc in the US... to go to Germany to get a Prodisc or multiple Prodiscs imho, is not the best thing to do.

zeegers uses the activ-L, which i couldn't have - but i would have balked quite a bit at such a fee when i know what consult fees are here in the US and w/ Boeree.

here is MY take:
if you need one level and you can get a prodisc - stay in the US!!!
if you cannot have or don't want a prodisc - look into surgeons who offer a newer generation disc (usually activ-L or M6)
if you need multiple levels - there seem to be better outcomes w/ the newer generation discs or with hybrids. there are no studies to confirm this - my opinion is based on my time on this site and another reading outcomes and whatnot.

with all of that said - spine disease is infinitely variable and there is no one answer for everyone. it is no small undertaking to go overseas to have a surgery - i myself am having a wound infection issue and i only feel comfortable recuperating and having follow-up here b/c i know how to get and advocate for it, being an MD myself. i think i did my homework and selected the right disc and surgeon FOR ME - and here 2.5 wks out, i know my spine situation is vastly improved. that doesn't make the M6L the right disc for everyone - but i will share what i know to help others make the right decision for THEM.

i have had nothing but positive interactions w/ Dr Clavel and can recommend him as a physician/surgeon w/o reservation. that doesn't make him superhuman or mean that no one will have a bad outcome with him.

[Harrison]

LUD, well said indeed.

Jeff, why would you be banned? That's crazy. I notice when I offer critical opinions about the Euro docs, you come out of the woodwork to insult me -- it's very odd. What's up with that?

What's really crazy is spine brokers working "behind the scenes" to make money from people going over to get surgery, then also making more sending patients to docs to fixed botched surgeries. And a reminder that Stenum reps hijacked this website, other people assumed aliases (multiple brokers, spine "advocates" and other idiots)to market to patients clandestinely. This is deeply unethical.

And these botched surgeries have taken place across clinics all over the world, including with the top doctors. My information comes directly from patients. What sickens me is that so much information about complications (and an occasional death on the table) never even makes it to the public.

For the record, ALL of the surgeons who are revered as such heros have had patients with poor outcomes. Every one. Are some surgeons superior in their techniques? Of course. More experienced? Of course. Better diagnostics insome places? Of course. More expensive? Usually. And that's the real problem: money better buys better healthcare.

So yes, it sickens me for so many reasons that people must go overseas; moreso when there are complications. And they do happen, but often go unreported.

Any way, Jeff, here's a reminder of acting cordially on the forum (see community rules above) - see rule 5:

ADRSupport Community - Member Guidelines & Code of Conduct

5. Disruption and instigation. Do not engage in any disruptive activities on any forum, such as off-topic postings or comments, or statements that might incite other members to violate these guidelines or participate in questionable activities. Refrain from "trolling", i.e. posting topics or opinions that are designed to provoke a negative response from members. Refrain from using offensive language. If you have any doubts about whether a particular statement might be considered offensive by other members, do not post it. Do not use profanity. Treat others as you would expect them to treat you. Personal attacks or any type of "flaming" of other community members will not be tolerated. Refrain from personal attacks and use constructive criticism not destructive criticism. Members must comply with generally accepted business e-mail etiquette.

Lastly, do the math: how many people have had surgery overseas that posted in the post-op forum? Do the calculations. It's lot of dollars.