Germany prices negotiable?
 

Hi all,
I am new to the boards. I have DDD at L4-L5 and L5-S1. I have been denied ADR by my insurance company as many of you have as well. I have been pursuing multi-level at Stenum and with Dr. Bertagnoli. I have received a diagnosis from Stenum for multi-level ADR at a cost of €uro 27,800.00. Has anyone negotiated the cost with them or Dr. b? I just wonder if it is possible? Also I have read alot of negative about Stenum, however most of what I read was a few years back, have things changed there for the better?

!
 

As I have said many time, Stenum is great and I believe the best. I think they are a nonprofit organization and I know that one person didn't pay at all and just left. I also know that they do this operation free for people really in need. They travel all over to do this. I also believe they are one of the cheaper ones out there.

Mark

Thanks Mark
 

I appreciate you taking the time to answer my PM as well. Needless to say I am very nervous about going abroad for surgery. My Brain says don't but my pain says go!
Along the lines of money. Did anyone else have to pay 250 Euro for the medical evaluation with Dr. b?

Yes, I had to pay that diagnostic fee for Dr. Bertagnoli as well. Folks have differing opinions on Stenum, no doubt. Obviously, my choice would be Bertagnoli. I was scheduled for surgery at Stenum, but then changed my mind, as alot of the negative was surfacing a few years ago when I had my surgery. Dr. Bertagnoli is awesome. Definitely at the very top of the pecking order when it comes to multiple adr experience. I just told myself: I have one back, one shot. I have to get it right. Dr. B's name and reputation kept bubbling to the surface. My own stateside surgeon said that Dr. B was "the god of multi-level adr's." I jumped on board. Best of luck to you in your decision making!

Hello,

Not sure on the $ thing ......

Todd

Dr. B
 

Will Dr B. use Maverick or just Pro Disc?

Dr. B uses the ProDisc. I also believe that the pricing is non-negotiable. If anyone has heard different, I am sure they will pop in.

Dr BRudolf Bertagnoli
 

Hi
I am in the process of an evaluation With Dr.B, Charged me 100 euros,
Requested more test such as old MRI, Bone Dexta, and EMG.
Sent and still waiting for a reply?
Good Searching

Gil:)

I really don't know whether the German ADR specialists negotiate or not. I seriously doubt the clinic that charges over $300 for just a diagnosis does.

I also read the posts about how bad Stenum is. But I have decided if the diagnosis is for ADR, Stenum is where I'll go. There have been a few stories about them in past posts but if you anylize the stories and the story tellers, most, if not all aren't exactly fact based. The most celebrated of the stories ended up with the patient totally pain free.

I have an appointment next month with a surgeon from Stenum. He's coming to the US (not just for me) and the diagnostic fee is $0. As I've been battling this for nearly 3 years, I don't care if I have to refinance the house, sell the BMW or apply for bailout money, I'm getting this done!

Bob

Bob?
 

Hi Bob.

Be careful what you wish for.
I will not have ADR its not there yet.
Read stories of ADR patients 10 years down the road.Revision,fusions,facet joint issues,adjecent disc issues.
Being a spiney sucks.
I will do the least to be pain free and hope ADR things get better in the future.

Hold On

Gil:)

There have been proven true stories for how Stenum screwed up patients beyond recovery and proven true stories for how Stenum saved patients and produced incredible results. If you really analyzed the stories, you'd find both ends of the spectrum a good distribution between the poles.

!
 

There are also horror stories on this site about surgery done by doctor B. No surgery is without risk. I believe the two surgeons at Stenum have done more ADR's than anyone on earth and that, along with the Maverick, is why i chose them. I am a success story having come into this surgery with a lot of baggage including two discectomies, mild facet hypertrohy, a lot of scar tissue and who knows what else. One year later, I am pain free and back flying as captain with american airlines.

However, you have to weigh all your options and risks and make a decision. It definitely wasn't an easy one for, in fact one of the most difficult and scariest one I have ever made. So, as they say, "choose wisely, grasshopper".

mark

Mark, Laura, Gil,,

Thank you all for your input. The point I'm at is the result of nearly 2 years of information gathering. Risk vs benefit has been high on the list of the PSDM items for study. I've seen nothing connected to Stenum that isn't in all surgeons "warning" list. Even with minimal invasion procedures they warn us of deep vein thrombosis from the procedure.

I've been having my PM dr injecting at different levels and combination levels for the last year. I truly think the problem areas have been isolated by this process. I'll find out next month with my next visit to him.

I'm taking in all of the diagnosis I've had and if we agree with one of them in total (or stick with conservitive care), that's the direction I'll go.

Thanks again,

Bob

ADR price is not really negotiable
 

I went to Stenum and had a good experience (as have some others like Terry), but they did have some bad outcomes. However, Dr. Zeegers and Dr. Bertagnoli have had some bad outcomes as well, though both are absolutely top-flite ADR surgeons. In particular, I remember a woman Anastasia that used to be on this board, that had a one level ADR done by Dr. B. and ended up in far worse pain after surgery. His office would not help her and denied any culpability, but she went to many other doctors and the consensus was that her facet joints were completely deteriorated and she never should have been a candidate for ADR. Dr. B. would not do a revision or help her, and she ended up suicidal and fortunately she was eventually able to get a doctor in France to remove the disc.

At any rate, when I was at Stenum there were a couple of patients there that had taken out 2nd mortages on their home to pay for the surgery. They would not do that if the price was negotiable, but they were so desperate and in so much pain (like me) that they were willing to go into debt to fix their back. I make a good living and so had the $35,000 in savings to pay for the surgery, and even though it was a big hit to my bank account I would do it again in a heartbeat. I have my life back, and so it was the best $35K I ever spent!

Research
 

Thanks for all the replies, I know I need to have multi-level ADR at this point. I was supposed to have single level here in Utah but was denied at the last minute. After consulting with my surgeon after the denial by insurance, he assured me that ADR was the absolute best option for me and that he would not get a fusion unless they had to drag him into it.
I am leaning toward Stenum at this time, my dad is a physician and when i showed him the negative comments on Stenum his response to me was...everyone is so quick to blame the doctor. There are many many factors that go into a surgery like this, such as: underlying patient pathology, previous treatments etc...

Also, Stenum uses the Maverick disc which, after a lot of research and talking with doctors, is far and away the best on the market today. I may send them an email today asking if their rates are negotiable, I will let you know what they say.

Tim

Why not try to negotiate a lower rate
 

Tim,

You have absolutely nothing to lose by contacting Stenum and asking if they will negotiate a lower rate for you---the worst they can say is No. I do know that Stenum is known for taking on very difficult cases and patients that have been turned away by other ADR surgeons, so that would lead to a higher rate of bad outcomes. But, as I said I would also have no problem going to Dr. Zeegers or Dr. Bertagnoli (though both are more expensive than Stenum), as they have outstanding reputations and have done great work for many people on this board.

I think I will ask
 

Charles,
I think you are right, it won't hurt to ask, and besides with the way the economy is here at least I can use that as a factor. I will let you know what they say.
Tim

Price not negotiable at Stenum
 

The word has come down from Stenum that their price is set by their board of directors and cannot be changed. :raspberry:

Very sorry to hear that
 

I am sorry to hear that, but not surprised. Like I said, in my group of 6 that had surgery at Stenum there were a few that were undergoing financial hardship to pay for their procedures. But, they were in terrible pain and suffering like me, and just had no choice. I was really lucky, because I had savings that I used to pay for it without having to go into debt or anything (and my parents are very well off and later paid me back for 1/2 of my costs). But, many many people have extreme trouble paying $35K - $50K out of their own pocket and so are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to these overseas procedures.

Mango,
Everything gets better later on...trouble is can you stand it to wait? I can't.

But Sternum quoted me $49,000 us funds. OUCH. My doc was going to get me in at Yale in Conneticut with the doctor there who has been doing the surgeries with Dr. B. I'm calling her (my spine doc) tomorrow to see if she got anywhere or even remembered to contact them.

I'm killing myself with all the pain meds I have to take and if I don't have this surgery by this fall I don't know what I'll do.

Fellow Mainer
 

Hi Grumpy
I am orginaly from Lewiston, I can wait, not on pain meds,yet, Still working a little and enjoying life. will hold out for the surgeons knife and insurance fight.
A wicked thank you
Gil:)
How about the steelers:shedance:

When I was looking at ADR in Germany I considered two surgeons. Dr. Bertagnoli was my first choice, but I felt like there really was no difference between him and Dr. Zeegers. When I got Dr. Bertagnoli's price, it seemed higher than I thought it would be, so I got the price from Dr. Zeegers. It was, indeed, considerably lower. When I told Bertagnoli's people that the price was too high for high, they did not attempt to negotiate - they just said, basically, "ok, good luck."

Bottom line, I do not think it is negotiable, but it is always worth a try.

Dr. B
 

I sent an email to Dr. B's office and told them I had a diagnosis from Stenum and wanted a second opinion but that I didnt want to spend $350 for them to give me one. They replied back a couple weeks later with a PDF of their requirements and wouldn't budge on the evaluation costs. Then right after I got that email, I got another from them with a link to pay by PayPal. I now have a contact with a family friend who is related to an orthopedic surgeon (she doesn't perform ADR) in Germany who is giving me an evaluation for free and hopefully will recommend a good Dr. I am leary of both Stenum and Dr. B at this point...maybe I'm just paranoid.

Yep.
 

Yep, I hadda pay for the consultation too... So far well worth it, but ask me again after surgery! (I hope I'll say the same!) Best of luck to you!

!
 

Stenum, in my humble opinion is the best in the business. They will look at everything you have and give you a diagnosis and a path to take. They get back to you fast and will even talk to you on the phone. I had L3-4 and L4-5 done with them in January 2008 and am back to work as a captain for American Airlines. They use the maverick and the cervical M6 and their rates are 28,000 Euros for a two level and that includes everything.

If you want, they will be in Missoula, Montana June 13 and 14 and will talk with you there for free. They are a nonprofit organization and travel to other countries to do ADR.

Mark

I agree with rhatzy. After all of the rumors thrown about concerning Stenum, I was leary about the visit. The team spent well over a half an hour with me reviewing my past MRIs, surgeries and asking general questions to see if maybe something else was wrong. Before the visit was over, I was hugely impressed with the character and compassion shown.

If anyone gets the opportunity to get an evaluation with them, I think they'll be equally impressed.

I'm currently trying to rearrange my budget to have a single level Maverick implanted.

The one thing they wouldn't do was install a zerk fitting for future lubrication if needed.......

Bob

Stenum - Nonprofit? ADR Abroad?
 

Mark

It's obvious from your several posts mentioning Stenum Hospital that you are satisfied with their services and that your outcome was successful (more or less). I say more or less because it appears from your signature that you may also have had a concurrent L5-S1 issue that was not diagnosed or addressed at the time of your surgery and a 3-level ADR might have been a better option at the time. That said, I congratulate you on getting your life back and getting into the air again! It must feel really great.

I visited the Stenum website (http://stenumhospital.com/) to investigate your statements, quoted above, but could find no evidence to support them. Would you kindly reference your source for that information?

Thanks!

My Own Research For Facts
 

Not having received any actual citations or references for the statements made above by Rhatzy,

(“As I have said many time, Stenum is great... I think they are a nonprofit organization and I know that one person didn't pay at all and just left. I also know that they do this operation free for people really in need. They travel all over to do this. I also believe they are one of the cheaper ones out there.” “There are also horror stories on this site about surgery done by doctor B. I believe the two surgeons at Stenum have done more ADR's than anyone on earth... Stenum, in my humble opinion... ...will even talk to you on the phone. They are a nonprofit organization and travel to other countries to do ADR.”)

I decided to do my own research. I’ve taken the question to another thread, to separate it from the original topic. Here’s the link:

http://www.adrsupport.org/forums/sho...1796#post81796 (Fact vs. Conjecture - ADRSupport Community - The Big File)