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  #1  
Old 01-17-2013, 11:42 AM
Icanraceit Icanraceit is offline
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Default Why do a lot of people go over seas for ADR

I was wondering why a lot of the people go over seas for the ADR operation. Is it insurance related. Is it better doctors. What is the reason. I understand it has been going on over there for decades, but we have been doing it here for since 04 under the FDA and experimentally since 00. Any info would be great as I am making the decision currently to have the operation or not to have the operation. Thanks for the responses in advance and God bless!
__________________
05 small amounts of numbness in low back
10/06 fall with severe twist and the end of painless life
07-11 PT, Chiro, PT, and more Chiro with some relief
4/11 pain came on and has settled in for good
facet blocks
7 injections
DRX 9000 traction (no help)
Fentanyl patch and 15 mg oxycodon for breakthrough
4 MRI Bulging L5S1 and DDD
3 Dr's suggest ADR
1/13 discogram 7-8/10 pain
2/28/13 ADR scheduled xxxx canceled
3/21/13 L5S1 ADR M6 with Dr. Clavel who else?:-)
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  #2  
Old 01-17-2013, 03:10 PM
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jss jss is offline
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Matt,

There are a couple of reasons.

Until recently it was unusual for an insurance company to pay for ADR, so you had to pay out of pocket. It costs much less out of pocket over seas than here in the US.

The other reason; overseas surgeons tend to have much more experience than their American counterparts, and overseas you can get much newer technology than here in the US.

Be aware that there are plenty of risks in going overseas; such as the one you mentioned; that is, getting home if the surgery goes bad.

Good luck, Jeff
__________________
C4/5 - ACDF in 2000
C5/6 - ACDF in 2002
C3/4 & C6/7 - M6 ADR, Nov 2009, Barcelona
Conceded defeat to a manifestly disingenuous BCBS-TX in my quest for reimbursement, Jan 2011
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  #3  
Old 01-17-2013, 03:56 PM
JeffR JeffR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jss View Post
Matt,

There are a couple of reasons.

Until recently it was unusual for an insurance company to pay for ADR, so you had to pay out of pocket. It costs much less out of pocket over seas than here in the US.

The other reason; overseas surgeons tend to have much more experience than their American counterparts, and overseas you can get much newer technology than here in the US.

Be aware that there are plenty of risks in going overseas; such as the one you mentioned; that is, getting home if the surgery goes bad.

Good luck, Jeff
Not to dissuade you, it's obvious you want to know all the facts, and to build of what Jeff said here are some other reasons why (at least for me):

-Better technology, the m6 is far superior to a prodisc in my opinion, especially for multi-level adrs.

-Multi-level adrs, the FDA hasn't really approved any discs for multi-level adrs - there is some recent news in this: I think one cervical just approval last week or something. On top of this insurance companies won't cover multi-level for the most part.

-Results, don't discount this one as it was a huge factor for me. Look on this board or others and see which doctors are producing consistently happy/satisfied patients. That tells you a lot.
__________________
Lifelong history of back issues from a young age, spasms etc.
1995 - Weightlifting injury
1997 - Hip Injury
2009 - Trampoline injury (just bounced down on my butt)
2009-2011 Physiotherapy and medication, progress but no lasting pain relief
2010 - X-Ray DDD L5-S1, L4-L5, L4-L3
2010 - MRI Herniation L5-S1, Bulges L4-L5, L4-L3
2011 - Epidurals - No relief
2012 - Facet Injections - No relief
2012 - Discogram TBI - positive L3-S1

L3-S1 ADR M6-L w Clavel 11/28/2012
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  #4  
Old 01-17-2013, 04:31 PM
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Harrison Harrison is offline
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Default ADR in US Since 2000

The Charite trials started then, so it's been almost 13 years in the states. And most of those docs are still performing spinal arthroplasty, and many more have been trained since them.
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"Harrison" - info (at) adrsupport.org
Fell on my ***winter 2003, Canceled fusion April 6 2004
Reborn June 25th, 2004, L5-S1 ADR Charite in Boston
Founder & moderator of ADRSupport - 2004
Founder Arthroplasty Patient Foundation a 501(c)(3) - 2006
Creator & producer, Why Am I Still Sick? - 2012
Donate www.arthropatient.org/about/donate
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  #5  
Old 01-18-2013, 01:05 AM
pelada pelada is offline
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I really only hear about clavel on here. No mention of dare. Guess hes pretty new. But there has to be many more. Who has the best results. Can we do a poll or something and get real data on this
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*
2003 low back injury playing hockey, hardly move
Conservative therapy involving steroid injections and massage
chiropractic Dr. M. Leahy, life still a living hell
2005 diagnosis finally as grade 5 annular tear (hmo's suck)
1 month later - SED Dr. A Yeung (better but not full recovery)
2011 re-injured (major disc pain returned, fighting it)
2012 re-injured again (major disc pain, now slight leg pain)
2013 april 17, M6 L5/S1 Dr. Clavel
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  #6  
Old 01-18-2013, 04:48 AM
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Lillyth Lillyth is offline
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Pretty much what everyone else said. Better care, cheaper for out of pocket, and better discs, not to mention insurance won't pay for more than one level.

My understanding about Dr. Dare is that he is the protegee of the late Dr. Boree, who was also a prolific surgeon. My interaction with his was great, I liked what I was able to glean about him via email, he cares genuinely about his patients as people, and a really cool bonus, he reads these forums, so hopefully if I got anything wrong about him he will correct me. I believe he is newish to the field, but got the impression he knew his stuff.

IMO, I would NEVER put a Prodisc in my body, but then, I am a freak of nature and not your typical case. Also if you are allergic to nickel, you do not want it. Go with the Bryan if you do a stateside ADR. The Bryan has shock absorption, while the Prodisc does not. All the docs in Europe are using the M6, with a few exceptions.

And a poll would be great! Can we get that going Harrison?
__________________
Multiple traumas to spine starting age 13.
1st American to have 6 ADR's in one surgery. C3-4 - C/7, & L5-S1 - L3-4.
Surgery w/ Dr. Clavel, 3/18/13, M6.
Before surgery: severe spinal stenosis C5/C6 (cord "flattened" per stateside doc), + for Hoffman's & Babinsky's.
At time of surgery: 5 yrs MAX before ending up in wheelchair.
Clavel found L5-S1 partially fused. Had to cut it apart to put in M6.
Please excuse brevity - SEVERE carpel tunnel.
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  #7  
Old 01-18-2013, 08:49 AM
Icanraceit Icanraceit is offline
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Smile

Thanks for all of your help.

I thankfully have insurance that will cover all of the surgery. BCBS of Illinois has been wonderful in the explanation of benefits in and out of network. I believe I can go anywhere to in the country but I am leaning to stay in North Carolina. There are two doctors I am considering Dr. Musante of Triangle ortho and Dr. Dahari Brooks of greensboro orthopedic and sports medicine.

As for Dr. Musante. He was actually the first doctor who spoke of ADR and fusion with me. He did a fellowship with doctor Scott Blumenthal at the Texas spine clinic. This is a big bonus as I understand Dr Blumenthal is a pioneer in this surgery stateside. The problem I have with him is the fact that he suggested a fusion. He said since I am round and have tons of life left and I own a construction company that I run it would be
Long term more inteligent to do the fusion. I guess this is not a bad idea in the case of adjacent disc failing at the l4l5 level we can install a artificial disc at that time. Also he didn't take the time to help me understand what he would use any of the concerns or recovery times and expectation. He kinda seemed in a hurry.

Dr.Dahari Brooks suggested that I only do an ADR because if my age and the reduced chances of adjacent disc problems. He informed me that he had done 65 ADR's lumbar and cervical and had great success with both regions. He also went into all the details if the surgery answered every question and spent over an hour with my wife and I on two separate occasions. He is also 20 minutes from my house and to be honest. I liked him better as a person, he seemed human. He joked and even through in a swear word as I being a contractor swear a bit and he acted like a friend which was a pleasant change.

As for the prodisc. I have read a lot of threads on this site and of what I read the people who have had single level ADR's done the prodisc seems to have the most success and least problems. This is just what I've read there me be tons of bad stuff too. I agree the M6 L is much more advanced but being that I am a guy that believes in most cases simple is good I kinda like the idea of less stuff to fail. That's just me. I am so thankful for all of your posts and Lillyth I hope you surgery goes absolutely perfect and you are back to pain free within the year just as I plan to be. Thanks again and God Bless!!
__________________
05 small amounts of numbness in low back
10/06 fall with severe twist and the end of painless life
07-11 PT, Chiro, PT, and more Chiro with some relief
4/11 pain came on and has settled in for good
facet blocks
7 injections
DRX 9000 traction (no help)
Fentanyl patch and 15 mg oxycodon for breakthrough
4 MRI Bulging L5S1 and DDD
3 Dr's suggest ADR
1/13 discogram 7-8/10 pain
2/28/13 ADR scheduled xxxx canceled
3/21/13 L5S1 ADR M6 with Dr. Clavel who else?:-)
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  #8  
Old 01-21-2013, 12:50 AM
JEVE19 JEVE19 is offline
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Default Business

You have to remember that surgery is where the doctor's make their money.
It's their business. Most are great sales people and can make you believe in them but...does that make them the best doctor for you? Is the disc they are using the best disc for you?
Is the procedure they recommend the best one for you? Are they recommending what's best that's FDA approved or just what's best?
Why would a US doctor tell you that the M6 is the best disc when it's not FDA approved?
They want your money to stay in their office and not fly overseas, where most of the doctor's we talk about on this site have "hundreds" of these surgeries under their belt.
My first visit to my US doctor who wanted to give me a Charite in 2005, I would have been his 13th ADR surgery. Gulp!! Plus, that was the first year that ADR's were approved here but...I couldn't get insurance to cover it. I lived with chronic pain for ten years and finally had Dr. Boeree do my L5-S1 with an M6-L.
Dr. Boeree was such a great loss because one conversation with him put you at such ease.
Experience and confidence is what sold me on him.
It's been 15 months since my surgery and I haven't had one set back. Haven't taken a pain pill since day 4 of surgery. Now, when I look back on it, I'm grateful to be fixed and kinda annoyed at loosing ten years of my life to chronic pain. At least I'm better now.
If I had to have another ADR done, I would have Dr. Dare do it.
I've spoken with him and I'm very confident that I'd be fine in his hands.
Those ten years of dealing with US doctor's really opened my eyes up to how the system here works and how far behind the times the US is when it comes to back care.
My doctor just had way more experience than any US doctor had and he showed me more care and concern in one phone call than I had in many years of seeing US doctor's.
I would never have another ADR done in the US.
That's just my personal feelings. I had such success, I'd have a hard time not going back overseas. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
I have my life back and I just don't trust the doctor's here now.
Thank God for the forum, finding this place lead me to Dr. Boeree and to getting my life back. I know now to not just listen to the doctor because he's a doctor. I read about any medicine or procedure they want to give me to educate myself FIRST. I want it to be my decision too.
Your smart for going on the internet to educate yourself. Keep doing that and best of luck to you. I hope God leads you to the right decision
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L5-S1 Lumbar M6 by Nick Boeree
10-14-2011
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  #9  
Old 01-21-2013, 06:38 AM
JeffR JeffR is offline
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I agree with Vicki - similar story up here in Canada except there is less of a money incentive but definitely a bias against going overseas for the m6 for the orthos and neuros I spoke with. Some of it is ignorance as well and you need to take all this (the money incentive, the ego of the doctor not being able to solve your problem etc.) into account as much as this is against your natural inclination to trust them.
__________________
Lifelong history of back issues from a young age, spasms etc.
1995 - Weightlifting injury
1997 - Hip Injury
2009 - Trampoline injury (just bounced down on my butt)
2009-2011 Physiotherapy and medication, progress but no lasting pain relief
2010 - X-Ray DDD L5-S1, L4-L5, L4-L3
2010 - MRI Herniation L5-S1, Bulges L4-L5, L4-L3
2011 - Epidurals - No relief
2012 - Facet Injections - No relief
2012 - Discogram TBI - positive L3-S1

L3-S1 ADR M6-L w Clavel 11/28/2012
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  #10  
Old 01-21-2013, 07:06 AM
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Lillyth Lillyth is offline
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Posts: 679
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The last two US based doctors I spoke to had never even HEARD of the M6!
__________________
Multiple traumas to spine starting age 13.
1st American to have 6 ADR's in one surgery. C3-4 - C/7, & L5-S1 - L3-4.
Surgery w/ Dr. Clavel, 3/18/13, M6.
Before surgery: severe spinal stenosis C5/C6 (cord "flattened" per stateside doc), + for Hoffman's & Babinsky's.
At time of surgery: 5 yrs MAX before ending up in wheelchair.
Clavel found L5-S1 partially fused. Had to cut it apart to put in M6.
Please excuse brevity - SEVERE carpel tunnel.
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