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  #1  
Old 02-04-2013, 01:17 PM
7tattoos 7tattoos is offline
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Posts: 3
Unhappy degenerative disc's and DEPRESSED

Hello everyone, my name is Walter and I have been dealing w' denegerative disc's since 2004/05. Have had microdiscectomey couple years ago, that did help the sevre pain associated w' my herniated S1-L5 disc, but the degeneration has progressed further. I have gone through an epidual steriod injection but that only helped that morning. Will not take any pain killers.... I do not want to become an addict.
No help from AISH disability, and my Dr. focus's on my depression more than my pain or disability. Dr Grace Lee ( my family Dr) does not support my use of marijuana as a pain therapy..... so I sit and hope for death every day of my life. I will not kill myself, but pray for an early demise. No one is offering any alternatives (like ADR surgery). But when your poor, there is no help. I see this now and feel as if no one is taking my disability seriously. I am also a survivor of years of physical, emotional and sexual abuse.... "this is what my Dr. focus's on"... Not my pain, or my inability to really do anything physical. So whats left.......
Peace
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  #2  
Old 02-04-2013, 03:18 PM
annapurna annapurna is offline
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I recognize your concerns about pain killers. As you're obviously active on the internet, you might want to investigate studies that show that controlled use of pain killers strictly as needed to moderate pain is unlikely to lead to addiction. I don't want to twist your arm on this as you'll have to decide what's acceptable for your life but an approach is to moderate the pain to enough degree that you feel able to think and plan. Certainly, I can't imagine your depression being resolvable by any means if you're in constant pain from your back and know that there's no potential for it improving. Temporary use of low levels of pain killers might help you feel like there's a way off the merry-go-round.

To go beyond that advice, you mention that you have a degenerated L5S1 but say the degeneration has progressed further. Do you mean that you have multiple levels involved or that L5S1 has gotten worse? Single level replacements with fusion, especially at L5S1, can work and are much easier to argue for in the US.
__________________
Laura - L5S1 Charitee
C5/6 and 6/7 Prodisc C
Facet problems L4-S1
General joint hypermobility

Jim - C4/5, C5/6, L4/5 disk bulges and facet damage, L4/5 disk tears, currently using regenerative medicine to address

"There are many Annapurnas in the lives of men" Maurice Herzog
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  #3  
Old 02-04-2013, 05:48 PM
7tattoos 7tattoos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annapurna View Post
I recognize your concerns about pain killers. As you're obviously active on the internet, you might want to investigate studies that show that controlled use of pain killers strictly as needed to moderate pain is unlikely to lead to addiction. I don't want to twist your arm on this as you'll have to decide what's acceptable for your life but an approach is to moderate the pain to enough degree that you feel able to think and plan. Certainly, I can't imagine your depression being resolvable by any means if you're in constant pain from your back and know that there's no potential for it improving. Temporary use of low levels of pain killers might help you feel like there's a way off the merry-go-round.

To go beyond that advice, you mention that you have a degenerated L5S1 but say the degeneration has progressed further. Do you mean that you have multiple levels involved or that L5S1 has gotten worse? Single level replacements with fusion, especially at L5S1, can work and are much easier to argue for in the US.
Thnx alot for the advice Laura.... pain killers are not for me though, I have tried percecet and threw up everytime I took one. My Dr thinks I may be allergic. "good thing". I do not like the feelin pain killers offer. I have been on an anti-inflamitory for the past five years, but stopped because of the stomach issues it caused. As for my progression, my S1-L5 has gotten worse. But my L5-L4 is also affected, I am even having problems w' pelvic instability. Hip joints are always killing me. Don't even wanna think about the other pain, in my legs, pelvis, lower back & the radiating pain through out my lower back & pelvis ( which includes my testicals) LOL! Even asked my Dr to refer me to a surgeon who would perform a casteration... but no luck there either. I think she (Dr. Grace Le) is way to focused on my depression. I am not being offered ADR surgery, or any other alternative surgery. How is this gonna change if I do not get some kind of intervention? I have chosen to use marijuana as a pain therapy alternative, but Dr Le is against that choice.... so asking her for help perscribing me medical marijuana is never gonna happen. Sorry I have been dealing w' this since 2004/05 and feel as if I am alone..... thank god for ADR support group, or I would have no one to talk w'. At least here I do not feel alone in my pain. Thnx again for responding. P.S. 'I also had my tail bone broken when I was 14 years old, after being thrown down the basement stairs'. Not sure if that is part of the problem as well?
Peace Fr. Calgary
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  #4  
Old 02-04-2013, 06:36 PM
marlin5353 marlin5353 is offline
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Hey 7tattos;

Sorry you are in pain, everyone on this site has been in pain with our bad spines. Many here have been fortunate enough to have succesful surgery and live pain free.

My advise is to be more direct with your doctor. Insist on getting an MRI and also having a nerve conduction test done. The beauty of the Canadian health care system is that we are ALL equal. Being rich does not get you to the front of the line. You may not have the funds to get an ADR overseas but we have brilliant Drs. who are willing to help. Our system is slow but they WILL help you. I know some Drs. will not take you seriously if you mention drug use to help with pain.....stop mentioning marijuana if you want them to take you seriously.

Your doctor is worried about depression becasue pain and depression are closely related. Please take the steps to help you live your life to the fullest.

Good luck and God Bless.
__________________
DDD - L4/5
C4/5 - disk bulge
Congenial Stenosis C3-C6
Pain/numbness/tingling since 2011
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  #5  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:40 AM
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Lillyth Lillyth is offline
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Walter, I am so sorry to hear everything you posted. I have debated posting this for quite some time because this is a public forum, but I am in much the same boat as you as far as pain meds go. Except that I really cannot take them. I am allergic to everything other than Fentanyl and Demerol, and neither of them are really long-term pain management drugs. That reaction you have to Percocet? Lemme guess? Violent vomiting for about forty-five minutes? Even if your stomach is empty? Yep. Allergy. Though most doctors do not consider it a "true" allergy as it won't kill you. After my pregnancy with my son, I developed an allergy to marijuana, so that is no longer an option for me either. Unlike most patients with C Spine damage, laying down makes my pain WORSE. So, the only way I can get to sleep each night is to drink myself into a stupor to the point of being able to pass out despite the pain. So I get your world in a way no one else here does. The reason I hesitated to post this is people usually have a *certain* type of reaction when I tell them I drink myself to sleep every night. One I am sure you are familiar with.

No offense to Marlin, but no, do NOT stop mentioning the marijuana. In fact, that should be your first question when you walk through the door. "I use marijuana for pain management. What are your thoughts on that?" If what comes out of their mouth is anything other than what you want to hear, get up and walk out. And yes, I am serious. I have seen three surgeons here in the US in the last year. The first one spent a half and hour lecturing me on my drinking (DUH! I know it's not healthy, hence why I am HERE trying to get you to FIX me!) while at the same time telling me there was nothing he could do for me. The next doc I saw had a little different reaction. He asked me what I was drinking and how much I was drinking of it. When I told him two bottles (yes, two BOTTLES - I have an extremely high tolerance to alcohol and always have) of two-buck chuck per night, his response was "Hey, four dollars a day for pain management? Not bad. That's pretty cheap, in fact." The surgeon after that mentioned something about my using alcohol for pain management. I told him it didn't really manage the pain, it was still there no matter how drunk I got. His response? "Drinking alcohol until you can pass out and get some sleep is still pain management."

Long story short, find yourself a doctor who gets it. There are some out there. You need someone who understands the desperation of someone who cannot (or will not) take pain meds.

As for treating your depression, I have always thought that was a load of BS. Perhaps if they, oh, I don't know, FIXED YOU, you might not be depressed!

You may not be able to afford to go overseas, but at least you have socialized medicine, so you do have some health care available to you.

Like you, I also have a lifetime of physical, mental, emotional, and sexual abuse. To have complex PTSD in the manner I can only assume you and I share is to have no one take you seriously. People do NOT get it unless they have it themselves or are close to someone who has it.

Again, like you, it's not just my back, my whole body is f***ed from a lifetime of trauma. My legs, hips, knees, you name it. And I'm only 35!

I will definitely post more as I have VOLUMES to add (I know I can help you through this because I have gone through it/am still going through it myself), I have to make dinner now since I promised my husband the computer for the rest of the night so he can do his homework.

Hang in there Walter. And please know you are not alone. And please know that at least one person takes your multiple disabilities seriously. I will pm you my email address to in case you need to talk about things you are not comfortable talking about on a public forum.

More later...
__________________
Multiple traumas to spine starting age 13.
1st American to have 6 ADR's in one surgery. C3-4 - C/7, & L5-S1 - L3-4.
Surgery w/ Dr. Clavel, 3/18/13, M6.
Before surgery: severe spinal stenosis C5/C6 (cord "flattened" per stateside doc), + for Hoffman's & Babinsky's.
At time of surgery: 5 yrs MAX before ending up in wheelchair.
Clavel found L5-S1 partially fused. Had to cut it apart to put in M6.
Please excuse brevity - SEVERE carpel tunnel.

Last edited by Lillyth; 02-05-2013 at 04:24 AM. Reason: change of sentence structure
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  #6  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:13 AM
marlin5353 marlin5353 is offline
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No offence taken Lillyth and if my post was disrespectful to you Walter than I truly do apologize as it was not my intent. I do not judge but was only trying to use my experiences with our health care system to help.

Being in Canada it is tough to see one specialist never mind about getting a second opinion. My point being that this is a spine forum and our system will be able to help you with your spine. It took me over a year from the date of my MRI to see a neurosurgeon. Once I saw him he said that there was a few issues with my spine that requires further investigation and ordered a new MRI for the one I had was from over 1 year ago. It took me 7 days to get a response from 2 Doctors from Europe who do ADR's.

My intend on my first post Walter was to reassure you that our system is slow but you CAN get help here, it unfortunately takes a lot of time.

Mark
__________________
DDD - L4/5
C4/5 - disk bulge
Congenial Stenosis C3-C6
Pain/numbness/tingling since 2011
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  #7  
Old 02-05-2013, 08:57 AM
JeffR JeffR is offline
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7tattoos View Post
Hello everyone, my name is Walter and I have been dealing w' denegerative disc's since 2004/05. Have had microdiscectomey couple years ago, that did help the sevre pain associated w' my herniated S1-L5 disc, but the degeneration has progressed further. I have gone through an epidual steriod injection but that only helped that morning. Will not take any pain killers.... I do not want to become an addict.
No help from AISH disability, and my Dr. focus's on my depression more than my pain or disability. Dr Grace Lee ( my family Dr) does not support my use of marijuana as a pain therapy..... so I sit and hope for death every day of my life. I will not kill myself, but pray for an early demise. No one is offering any alternatives (like ADR surgery). But when your poor, there is no help. I see this now and feel as if no one is taking my disability seriously. I am also a survivor of years of physical, emotional and sexual abuse.... "this is what my Dr. focus's on"... Not my pain, or my inability to really do anything physical. So whats left.......
Peace
7Tattoos, condolences on your situation and welcome to the group.

First off you should know that depression/anxiety has a very high comorbitity with chronic pain - in fact most of the top pain clinics have psychological services such as CBT or mindfulness therapy etc. to help with that - so you are not alone on this board struggling with both. The second thing you should know is dealing with the pain will offer significant improvements in the depression department and I can attest to that personally.

Thirdly there are patients on here who have had one-level ADR in Alberta who are doing well. You should scour the boards for their names and message them to find out who their doctors are etc. one such patient is CanadianDean and he seems like a standup guy (no pun intended) and could probably offer some pointers.

Fourthly I am going do differ from Lillyth here and say you should compartmentalize your depression and your back pain when dealing with Doctors. Telling a Neurosurgeon you are taking drugs and have a history of abuse raises red flags that may make them refer you to counselling BEFORE you have surgery. Stick to the issue that a specific doctor has - if you are dealing with a Neuro or an Ortho talk about chronic pain and how it is ruining your life and about your back - leave the other stuff out of it (or downplay it) or you may not get taken seriously (in that domain).

Fifthly - I highly recommend you seek counselling (if you aren't already) for a few reasons. It will help you feel at least a little better if you get the right combination of meds (not narcos) including some anti-depressants that help with pain. It will also demonstrate to your back doctors that you are taking that aspect seriously and it will prevent them from just dumping you off. Lastly it sounds like you are in crisis if you are talking about wanting to die this is a VERY serious sign that you are in a deep depression and could do something to harm yourself (even if you don't think that you might).

Best of luck, I know how hopeless things can seem, but if you are in Alberta you are in a lucky spot in that it is one of the few places in Canada where you can get an ADR surgery, you just need to find the right doc.
__________________
Lifelong history of back issues from a young age, spasms etc.
1995 - Weightlifting injury
1997 - Hip Injury
2009 - Trampoline injury (just bounced down on my butt)
2009-2011 Physiotherapy and medication, progress but no lasting pain relief
2010 - X-Ray DDD L5-S1, L4-L5, L4-L3
2010 - MRI Herniation L5-S1, Bulges L4-L5, L4-L3
2011 - Epidurals - No relief
2012 - Facet Injections - No relief
2012 - Discogram TBI - positive L3-S1

L3-S1 ADR M6-L w Clavel 11/28/2012
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  #8  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:29 PM
Lillyth's Avatar
Lillyth Lillyth is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marlin5353 View Post
No offence taken Lillyth and if my post was disrespectful to you Walter than I truly do apologize as it was not my intent. I do not judge but was only trying to use my experiences with our health care system to help.

Being in Canada it is tough to see one specialist never mind about getting a second opinion. My point being that this is a spine forum and our system will be able to help you with your spine. It took me over a year from the date of my MRI to see a neurosurgeon. Once I saw him he said that there was a few issues with my spine that requires further investigation and ordered a new MRI for the one I had was from over 1 year ago. It took me 7 days to get a response from 2 Doctors from Europe who do ADR's.

My intend on my first post Walter was to reassure you that our system is slow but you CAN get help here, it unfortunately takes a lot of time.

Mark
In no way did I think you were being disrespectful. Your intent was clear to me. Normally, you would be right. But having found doctors that get it, I decided it was better to just get my unfortunate method of pain management out of the way first. That way I know before we waste everyone's time. In fact, one might even inquire over the phone of the support staff before even MAKING an appointment.

I don't know the Canadian system at all, but I do know that universally doctors tend to judge people like Walter and I. We tend to get accused of being "drug seekers". In the words of my favorite US doc: "Next time a doctor says that to you, I want you take your car, drive it over his foot, and leave it there. Then tell him to take two aspirin or ibuprofen. Wait and see how long it takes him to exhibit car removal seeking behaviors." LMAO!
__________________
Multiple traumas to spine starting age 13.
1st American to have 6 ADR's in one surgery. C3-4 - C/7, & L5-S1 - L3-4.
Surgery w/ Dr. Clavel, 3/18/13, M6.
Before surgery: severe spinal stenosis C5/C6 (cord "flattened" per stateside doc), + for Hoffman's & Babinsky's.
At time of surgery: 5 yrs MAX before ending up in wheelchair.
Clavel found L5-S1 partially fused. Had to cut it apart to put in M6.
Please excuse brevity - SEVERE carpel tunnel.
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  #9  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:47 PM
Lillyth's Avatar
Lillyth Lillyth is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffR View Post
The second thing you should know is dealing with the pain will offer significant improvements in the depression department and I can attest to that personally.

Fourthly I am going do differ from Lillyth here and say you should compartmentalize your depression and your back pain when dealing with Doctors. Telling a Neurosurgeon you are taking drugs and have a history of abuse raises red flags that may make them refer you to counselling BEFORE you have surgery. Stick to the issue that a specific doctor has - if you are dealing with a Neuro or an Ortho talk about chronic pain and how it is ruining your life and about your back - leave the other stuff out of it (or downplay it) or you may not get taken seriously (in that domain).

Fifthly - I highly recommend you seek counselling (if you aren't already) for a few reasons. It will help you feel at least a little better if you get the right combination of meds (not narcos) including some anti-depressants that help with pain. It will also demonstrate to your back doctors that you are taking that aspect seriously and it will prevent them from just dumping you off. Lastly it sounds like you are in crisis if you are talking about wanting to die this is a VERY serious sign that you are in a deep depression and could do something to harm yourself (even if you don't think that you might).
Oh, no, I am only recommending he be up front about the pot. Walter, whatever you do, do NOT, I repeat do NOT mention your history of abuse. Docs will have their mind made up about you before you finish your sentence! It is sad, but true. That fracture in your tailbone? You slipped on a flight of stairs in the ice when you were 14. It's snowy there. Totally believable. When you talk to the doc, speak ONLY about your back. Nothing else. None of the surgeons I've consulted with here know anything about it. And that is the way it will stay. It is none of their business, and will only cloud their judgment of you.

As for getting rid of the pain helping with the depression - DUH! That's the reason you are depressed! Hell, I KNOW I will be having surgery and there are some days I just can't take it. I totally get that the pain is causing the depression, which is why I think doing anything OTHER than getting rid of the pain is just plain silly. Oh, it hurts all the time and you're sad? Let's fix the sad, shall we. NOT!

Jeff is right Walter. You need some counseling. Someone who specializes in PTSD. In our country it was all over the news last night about the war Vet with PTSD who flipped out, shot a bunch of people, and then killed himself. Like any injury, PTSD needs time to heal. I am doing great now, but there was a time that I wasn't. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, but sometimes you have to go through some major darkness to get to that light.

In the meantime, please know that this entire community of people is rooting for you, and we will help you in any way we can. Gotta run now! More later.
__________________
Multiple traumas to spine starting age 13.
1st American to have 6 ADR's in one surgery. C3-4 - C/7, & L5-S1 - L3-4.
Surgery w/ Dr. Clavel, 3/18/13, M6.
Before surgery: severe spinal stenosis C5/C6 (cord "flattened" per stateside doc), + for Hoffman's & Babinsky's.
At time of surgery: 5 yrs MAX before ending up in wheelchair.
Clavel found L5-S1 partially fused. Had to cut it apart to put in M6.
Please excuse brevity - SEVERE carpel tunnel.
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  #10  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:30 PM
annapurna annapurna is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,668
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If you're able to go overseas, I'd look up Dr. Zeegers in Germany. He was world famous, not only for being a heck of a back surgeon, but for taking another surgeon to task after the second surgeon announced publicly that he'd never operate on a patient who was taking pain medication. Zeegers denounced him in the conference meeting saying that a surgeon needs to look at the whole health of a patient and not let pain medication addiction override the surgeon's assessment of whether or not the patient needs surgery. I know that you might not be able to look overseas but that's the kind of whole health approach you'll need.
__________________
Laura - L5S1 Charitee
C5/6 and 6/7 Prodisc C
Facet problems L4-S1
General joint hypermobility

Jim - C4/5, C5/6, L4/5 disk bulges and facet damage, L4/5 disk tears, currently using regenerative medicine to address

"There are many Annapurnas in the lives of men" Maurice Herzog
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