Marketing
 

Just remember too, when you are doing your research, both Stenum and Dr. B's websites are marketing tools directed at Americans.
Stenum is not non-profit, their head surgeon does charity work around the world...according to their representative Sue Hart, but they are a for-profit clinic.

Dr. Marnay
 

Why does Dr. Marnay never get any mention when he invented the prodisc? Is it because he is not a squeaky wheel and doesn't market heavily in the U.S.? I don't know. The guy invented the Prodisc and there is one patient who has posted here that has four of them in his spine. Both Stenum and Alpha (now debunked and I wish we all knew the real behind the scene story there as I bet it would be a good read) market heavily here in the U.S. Why do we not here anything about Zeegers anymore after Alpha went belly up? A few years ago, people were deciding between Zeegers and Dr. B. I know neither Zeegers nor Dr. B were implicated in the lawsuits and it was Dekkers that was misdiagnosing MRI's to fatten his pockets via unnecessary surgeries and has a slew of lawsuits against him and his medical license was revoked. (hearing that made me sick) I realize marketing is an important aspect of a business, and folks, these are businesses and Stenum surgeons don't work for free even though they may have non profit status which is new to me, I didn't know that. If either of these surgeons are judging your facets just by MRI, then that is bad and there is hard science to show that you can't judge facet pain just by MRI image. You can see enlargement and degeneration but can't judge pain. Heck, my surgeon said my facets didn't look that bad on the MRI and they fused when I had the dynesys in the first 3 months as they were bone on bone which facilitated the arthrosis of them.

There was a time when I mistakenly thought I was an ADR candidate (I'm not because of facet problems but could be a hybrid case, I'm not sure yet) and I did as much research as I could and there were some horrible accounts listed here regarding stenum and on a few other boards regarding stenum (I particularly remember Harrison responding that he was horrified by what he was reading and some of the stuff was stomach churning) Use the search and read them all and you will see many old accounts on ADR support. People were put into groups of 6 at stenum (sounds like animal herding or assembly line preparation at the Ford plant). One lady described all the members of her group having poor outcomes. I've had jobs where I sucked the first year and got better in time so maybe that is the case. I remember problem being with the charite and they use the maverick and perhaps they have gotten really good with it. I do remember hearing that Stenum didn't use imagining to place the disc and did 6 surgeries in a day and Dr. B took his time and did a max of 2 or 3 a day and he would tap at the disc to get it just right. That seemed like a big plus as studies have shown placement is key with ball and socket ADR. This is just what I read on the board so who knows for sure. I mean, the pope can get an account and post on here and we wouldn't know it was him so you have to treat internet info with a bit of skepticism until you know you can trust the source and confirm the message isn't self serving and skewed by the ever present profit motive.

This is the thread that stays in my mind despite reading it years ago. http://www.adrsupport.org/forums/sho...rrified&page=3

Stenum
 

Johnb,

Stenum does use imaging. Stenum has 10 in a group(all north americans). I keep up with most of them and 7 of us, including me, are a succes and back to doing what we did before. The other three are still having some problems but are glad they did it. Most of the Stenum stuff you hear about are hearsay. Why don't you research all the other prodisc and charite patients on here and read their horror stories. I'm glad that Stenum markets here or I would have never been able to find them. Then I would have had two levels fused and never be able to go back to work as an airline captain.
It's good to know that for all the patients that went to dr. b, mornay. and all the others have had a perfectly successful recovery and that none of them had any post operative problems. More than what, 5000+ successful operations?

I personally don't care who anyone goes to. I felt comfortable with Stenum and the fact that they were using the Maverick and I'm glad I did. I hope and pray that whoever you pick and what ever disc you get, that the procedure works for you.

Mark

Hello,

I'm still doing well ( L4-L5 Maverick implanted @ Stenum.)

Due to limping for 7yrs... and waiting for my Doctors in the USA to offer me surgery. I now have some deep hip socket pain to deal with from time to time.

Thank God I found Stenum to help me .... :)

( I no longer walk with a limp )

Todd

Again, we have beat up these issues ad nauseum. And then some.

Just to quibble with one point you mentioned, Mark, about most of what is heard about Stenum is “hearsay.” What does that mean? I’ve seen few discussions where statements about Stenum proved to be false. And the link that John provided included a discussion explaining my phone calls to Marilyn, Gary, Willy, Carmen and many others that were hurt at Stenum. I CALLED THEM MYSELF to confirm their stories and terrible outcomes. Yes, thank God, these were in the past. I wish all of them peace and healing in all the days ahead.

Frankly, I am tired of this same issue surfacing so frequently. Is it possible that we could leave it alone, at least for a while? Instead of putting energy into this tired subject, could we spend time supporting people that need our help? That is what this community is about -- providing support to people that need it. Not arguing about these subjects over and over again!

LBP, Drew, Cris, Steve and many new members people deserve of our attention. Let’s show them that we care by helping them with their questions.

!
 

Harrison,

I am not the one who has brought this up. As soon as I mentioned Stenum on the board, I was lambasted. All I'm doing is pointing out all the idiocy on this site. There isn't any surgeon who has perfect success rates. I just pray and hope that whoever you go to and whatever disc you choose will come out successfully. If you want, I bet I can find just as many people with horror stories with Dr. B as you can with Stenum. So, how do you want it? You want to play this childish game or what? in fact, When I joined this site, you called me and told me not to go to Stenum. Well, I'm glad I did and so are a lot of other people I can name.

Mark

Mark,

You may have asked for my opinion (in a confidential discussion), and I explained the same thing I share with any patient: read as much as you can about the “good, the bad and the ugly” of any doctor and institution you plan to visit for a consult or for surgery.

I am sorry that you disrespected my post from today, as well as our confidential discussion. I am closing this topic.

Fairness
 

It appears to be continued bias toward various European surgeons and toward others. This is particularly disturbing to me as most of the visitors to this site come for (and I hope receive) empathy, support and information.

There are a few members that continually want to argue which team is better, the Yankees or Mets, the White Sox or Cubs. This is totally counterproductive for all involved.

It's gotten to the point that I feel my and others opinions are muffled since we believe our research and experiences are discounted as rubbish. We are continually belittled by vocal opponents of a certain surgeon even when they have no reference point to base their allegations on.

I will be more than happy to continue to post here because I believe I need to repay the support I have (and continue) to receive from members of this forum. However, I feel it is imperitive that opinions and experiences be heard without fear of being attacked by "killer Bs" (neat nickname, eh?).

This happened recently to one of our members. We needed yo hear that thread through. The detractor that STARTED that thread made very sarcastic and unsubstantiated claims (or researched facts as he put it). The thread was closed before he could respond with his proof. I for one would like to see his proof. If his response(s) are valid and actually do offer actual hard evidence, I may have my opinions swayed.

The bottom line, the request is simply this:

None of us on this site are doctors or surgeons. We are patients trying to find relief from pain. Regardless of the course of treatment we individually choose, the others should be supportive and hope and pray for the best possible outcome.

Let's try to act like adults and respect each others opinions, needs and especially, our vulnerabilities.

Bob

I will not respond to your accusations of unfairness. I will respond to your implication that the information about Stenum's reputation is biased. My wife and I have been involved with this board, Back Pain Support Group, and the old Alpha Klinik discussion forum when it existed about seven years ago. I've never spoken with a Stenum patient but I have read posts from people claiming to be Stenum patients. In the 2005 to 2006 timeframe, several posted on this board and claimed to be failed Stenum patients. One in particular claimed that of his/her group of seven patients, something like (my poor memory here) five had failed back surgery problems and that this was representative of Stenum's normal percentages. I searched on this board and found that most of those old posts aren't readily available but you can look up Rich's FAQ about Stenum's reputation created in March 2006 that contains links to older discussions. Very little of this has a bearing on Stenum's current sitaution. Three years is sufficient for any clinic to fix old problems or to create new ones.

Read through and decide for yourself but please, just like old-timers need to accept that Stenum has changed, accept that the old-timer's bias against Stenum used to be founded in posts made on this board.

http://www.adrsupport.org/forums/sho...ghlight=stenum

Bob, Laura -- well said. I asked the other "detractor" not to post these kinds of topics, as they are counter-productive. And as I mentioned within the topic I closed, there as so many OTHER topics worthy of our time.

And I'll ask again -- can we let water go under the bridge? This is counter-productive to the community. Please, people, lets pay attention to other more important issues -- spine patients who need your support: your caring, ideas about solutions and of course your kindness.

So, I say: Peace! Peace! Peace! :angel:

Footnote, everyone: I had surgery in Boston in 2004 and I am glad I did. I am pain-free. And I have no allegiances to any surgeon. And I do NOT make money advising patients where to go or not to go. In fact, I make little money running this board; the Google Ad revenue pays for hosting and nominal IT support. What money the foundation makes is from grants and donations, ALL of which are reported to the US government and to the public. To date, this amount of money is not enough to run any business.

This post is now merged with the closed topic mentioned herein.