Just my thoughts since this morning on Clavel
 

Ok I hate to do this but, I pretty much made up my mind to have ADR surgery on my two lowest joints in spine w Bertagnoli in sept! I contacted clavel thru his website they responded quickly and I thanked them, this is about a week ago. I awake this morning to see this.:

Dear Gabriel,

I just wanted to update you, because Dr Clavel has looked at the information you provided and although he needs to see your tests and medical information it seems you are a good candidate for 2 level lumbar ADR.

Once we receive all your information, he’ll be able to confirm this assessment.

Do you want me to send you the appropriate quote and some information on the procedure? Or do you prefer to wait until all the tests are received and he confirms the assessment?


Yolanda Casadevall
International Patient Coordinator

The only information I sent them was an email saying thank you, I just want future patients to be informed. Based on the push of clavel so services here by a few members I was thinking of changing my mind, but this email sealed the deal. I wish EVERYONE successful surgery n freedom from pain!

Peace out brothers n sisters

Oh come on, you don't hate to do this. In my opinion, you've been putting Dr. Clavel down all week so you can elevate Dr. Bertagnoli in your mind. That's fine but, don't use a basic email response from his extremely busy assistant to decide that Dr. Clavel is a bad neurosurgeon. The letter just says to me that they need more information and would be happy to take the time to tell you what it costs if you are interested. Did you notice that she didn't include a price for the two level surgery? It was just a polite response to your email to figure out if you want to move forward.

I'm sorry that you are scared, angry and in pain! I reluctantly spent several hours writing you a long post to your request for information about Dr. Bertagnoli and the Prodisc a few days ago because you said Harrison directed you to me. I tried to only fill it with facts and information I have gathered while still being sensitive to all the former patients. After I wrote it, you quickly blew it off without even a thank you so, I deleted it. That was two hours that I wasted. Later, you made some unsolicited disparaging remarks about someone's recent surgery x-rays after he had a successful surgery with Dr. Clavel and was out of pain for the first time in eons. (Your post and my response we both deleted.)

It's pretty clear to me that you made up your mind a long time ago who your surgeon will be and any information that is not positive about Dr. Bertagnoli or the Prodisc will be discounted in your mind. I don't fault you for this because part of this journey is definitely taking a leap of faith in a surgeon and the technology. No surgeon will ever have a 100% track record and that goes for the discs too. Do you see a pattern in how you are thinking? I do. You have made up your mind that Dr. Bertagnoli is the surgeon you want to do your operation! I hope later we will hear about what a huge success your surgery was and that you are out of pain. I really pray for that for you.

There are many former patients of Dr. Clavel here who credit him for saving their lives. This is the reason that so many patients from this Board have made the trek to Barcelona. Other patients have stayed in the U.S. and had successful outcomes. There is not a one size fits all solution to this puzzle of pain. Heck in my case, I couldn't even get a consensus from all the surgeons I contacted in the U.S and Europe! One last note, you really don't know Dr. Clavel until you have spoken to him. He's an outstanding human being in my mind and I feel so incredibly blessed to have met and spent time with him.

P.S. This thread really belongs in the International Forum. Hopefully, Harrison will catch it and move it over there.

GKTM
I have to agree with Cynlite here. You've come in guns blazing and angry at seeming almost everyone on this board. WE are NOT your enemies…..we are your kindred spirits and carry a LOT of helpful information and pathways to success.
I went to Bertagnoli and so far so good. He's also a genius and if I was to choose a surgeon all over again, I'd be very carefully looking at Clavel….believe me.
Cynlite has done a ton of research (mostly all very objective and in depth) and you could benefit here FOR FREE. Consider that and value it. You sign off with some religious phrases from time to time…..well buddy, THY WILL be done……it doesn't say MY WILL be done. I personally loathe religion and assess it at being one of the many major problems with society worldwide at this point BUT I am a deeply spiritual person. There is a HUGE difference. Religion is manifest from human's interpretation and stumbling application of spirituality and true spirituality is unfettered or tainted by the weaknesses and faults inherent in human beings. I ride to the top of the mountain to get closer to my HP….whatever he/she is and I see him/her in all things nature.

Again, were your friends, not your enemies but if "contempt prior to investigation is a self fulfilling prophecy" is you MO…..then fill your boots buddy….I would prefer to not associate with you or your prejudices and just walk away………

One comment from a long-timer: this community and earlier versions of this occasionally go through periods of ugly posts while people debate which surgeon is "best" for whatever definition of best that's currently being debated. Rich, AKA Harrison, has had to step in when these debates go from exchanges of opinions to angry defense of those opinions; on either side of the debate. Saying that you don't want to use surgeon X doesn't get you banned, though you might get questions about why. Saying that surgeon X is "Insert slanderous statement here" gets you cautioned by Rich. Attacking someone because they don't share your opinion is a fast way to get banned.

Bluntly, we're not paying your medical bills. That means you don't have to defend your opinions of the different surgeons to us. If you want to vent your frustrations or check with the community to see if they've had the same opinion an issue, feel free but there's enough active posters on this board that you can be pretty sure that someone has the opposite opinion on nearly any issue you raise. Think about that when you choose your phrasing.

Annapurna, you are correct and I appreciate your input. I hope my choice of words were not seen as an attack but, rather my attempt to diffuse what I saw as an escalating problem. Since writing is one dimensional, it can be tricky choosing one's words when trying to communicate a point online. My intent has always been to be helpful and not become part of a problem. Going forward, I plan to stay out of this exchange and will leave it to others to moderate.

I have not followed the various strings of discussion too closely, but I concur with Fathub, Annapurna and Cynlite. If A member would not use a particular surgeon for specific reason he/she should be free to voice that as long as it is not slanderous. However, I feel that once is sufficient to get the message across and it is not necessary or welcomed by other members for the subject to be raised over and over and on different threads.

Well said, Fathub! I try to make spirituality/mindfulness part of my overall life style. First and foremost to me this means being kind to others and doing no harm. Live and let live. Talking negatively about another person, including a surgeon, does not really fit into the "spirit" so to speak.

Wrong
 

Cynlite your wrong about me promoting or discrediting anyone, i just thought it wrong to say I'm a good candidate based on email saying I have two bad lower discs? No MRI or anything? Fathub sorry you feel I was blazing as I respect you. Thy will be done, yes, I hope his will is in my favor as far as surgery goes. I'll remove myself from these forums. Thank you all that are genuine.

Peace out

sorry I am late in responding. I just got back from 3 M6C with Clavel yesterday. All is fine except for muscle stiffness from the mistake of trading a business class seat for coach.

Dr Bert takes tough cases, but he is prodisc guy. He works also with Dr James Yue of Yale New Haven CT, who you might want to also consult if convenient. I saw Yue, but didn't want prodiscs.

Mark ******* of Global Patients Network was a patient of Dr Bert and now assists others. He gave me several hours of phone time without cost. You might consider just talking to him re options. I think he is calif

Did Clavel look at your reports? I am unclear on what information was provided to him. He is a very deliberate man, and told me 3 times he would not do ADR or hybrid on my lumbar, and I was pushing for it.

And to continue, this is 100% your choice, but choose carefully and unemotionally. The compassion and knowledge of forum members is unlimited it seems. Their postings, emails, phone calls, and even a visit from one in the hospital were so valuable. You aren't doing yourself any favors by not using all this collective wisdom.

I am going for a walk with my 3 new expensive devices.....because thanks to Dr Clavel, now I can.....

all I can say is
 

Cynlite, YOU GO GIRL! No more need be said. Except that I have heard negative comments about all surgeons on this site. All we can do as members is our research and make a choice based on the information at hand.

I apologize
 

I'm just a bundle of nerves and not seeing the situation clearly. I'm sorry to hurt anyone here as your posts have given me fuel to keep moving forward. I wish everyone a healthy back and mostly pain free life.

Phobic to fly
 

I don't fly ever but now I must n I'm scared beyond description, I'm lil sissy !

What's at the other end is worth it GKTM......say Hello and give Dr. Nichols a big hug and tell her to 'get responsible'.......she'll know what you mean.....tell her to explain it to you!!!!

Just an observation
 

Ok I have been reading way too much. I chose Bertagnoli. But I wanted to read all the negatives about all doctors mentioned here. Now I'm not bashing anyone as I'm sure all these doctors are all great n bad outcomes are just a fact of life. People omit facts people are sometimes obese or what ever. I learned just a moment ago n correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to make enemies with cynlite lol.

Did dr Clavel work at stenum? I was on a uk support site reading n a lady said she had surgery in Germany at stenum by a Ritter n Clavel? Also I see a Peterson guy worked at stenum n now works at a different place with Ritter their site bashed Bertagnoli on numerous paid adverts. My final choices were Clavel n Bertagnoli what sold me was the pro disc. I feel it's a better disc for me. While I don't like the huge keels I like the idea of the wide gap Bertagnoli like to leave to ward of auto fusion between verts it seems a few people has ossification problems with m6. Like I said it's all a crap shoot. My buddy is an ortho n he says other than knee replacement all prosthetic device I plantations are 50/50.

I hope I'm not offending anyone just want the facts available as I didn't know about stenum n Clavel if it is true and I didn't see it mentioned here and I have read all the older n new posts here. So I'm the one who started the wave in the stadium today lmao. Good luck to everyone 18 days n counting.

I'm so nervous words can't describe. What sounds far fetched is the 90 percent plus I here dr claim. Looks like my buddy is right more like 50/50 by my definition of success!

Clavel and his office partnered with Stenum for a brief period but, to the best of my memory, never actually worked at Stenum or directly with Ritter-Lang

Hi, Stone here,

When I was doing my initial research into ADR there was a website link from Ritter-Langs (R-L) site to Clavels. I don't know if they ever worked together. My assumption was that if I sent my MRIs to R-L they would be shared with Clavel. That was not the case as I found out later. My doctor, Dr. Biersted from my understanding also worked with R-L. Malte Peterson worked for R-L and at the time of my operation works for Dr. Bieistedt. Rumour had it, and I want to emphasize "rumour" was that there was a falling out between R-L, Dr. Biestedt and Malte Peterson. From my understanding again Dr. Biersted did not agree with the way R-L did his operations. Dr. Bieistedt likes to use a fluoroscope to insert the implants, apparently R-L didn't. Dr. Clavel was a no go for me because at the the time Spain was a mess with austerity measures and major public service strikes. http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-858040.html

While in Germany another patient, who I found out lives a few miles from us, struck up a conversation with Malte. Apparently a relative of his had surgery with R-L in Stenum, a few months earlier, and was doing very well by the way, discussed R-L and Stenum.

While ADR might be considered exclusive here, (North America) I don't think you can through a hammer in a German hospital without hitting a German spine specialist that hasn't done ADR surgery. They invented it.

For me it was the assessment
 

Dr. Clavel gave and explained his assessment better than the others. He is also the only one 5bar caught the segmental kyposis that was at c7t1. We have in-laws that love in Germany but we still chose Spain. Its too bed all.of that was going on when you were trying to decide. Both countries are awesome. I loved Germany. I lived there three years in Baumholder.