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  #21  
Old 03-27-2015, 10:33 AM
annapurna annapurna is offline
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Thinking about titanium vs. your surgical mesh as being potential problems for your body, you might want to get on Rich's other site and read about biofilm infections. Titanium is typically thought to be non-reactive in the body. That isn't always true but it is typically. Surgical meshes, though, can form biofilm infections and serve as an irritant due to the infection, even though the mesh itself is inert. Rich's got a lot of good information about biofilms and you can learn enough to at least start asking the questions there. I may be leading you astray but learning and questioning is always worthwhile. Getting surgeries when you didn't need to do so, that's probably not so worthwhile.
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C5/6 and 6/7 Prodisc C
Facet problems L4-S1
General joint hypermobility

Jim - C4/5, C5/6, L4/5 disk bulges and facet damage, L4/5 disk tears, currently using regenerative medicine to address

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  #22  
Old 04-22-2015, 03:11 PM
Old Codger Old Codger is offline
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Hi, All,

I had the surgical to remove the titanium plate and screws that were on my cervical spine.

No idea what the “green murky stuff” is/was that came out of me, mentioned below. It was checked for "infection", and results came back negative for infection.

I went through a surgical operation on Wednesday, April 1 to remove the metal (“titanium alloy”) plate and screws that was on my spine from the fusion of my cervical spine back in July 1999. These plate and screws were colored with something that the surgeon told me later that he did not know what it was. Some amount of mesh was left behind; it was too embedded with the bone.

I based this removal on my good experience in having the metal removed after my BIG falling accident in 1981-1983... and the results from some recent metal allergy tests (patch and LTT). A particular symptom dissipated after the removal in 1983, that came only when the metal was put in.

To save me some time and effort, I will repeat what I and my wife wrote to friends. Actually, I still have trouble thinking about what happened.


This was the first time that my surgeon had removed any metal that he had implanted previously... in nineteen years. He said to me that he did not think that it was the metal that was causing me certain symptoms, but agreed to remove the metal based upon my prior experience in the 1980's.

I can talk about what happened to me now, somewhat. The just below is what Kate, my wife, wrote to my niece.

************************************************** ************
-----Original Message-----
From: Kate
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 7:29 PM
To: Michelle
Subject: George

Hi Michelle,

Hope all is well on your end.

Thought I would update you on our end.

George found out he was highly allergic to metals (chromium, cobalt & Nickel) a few months ago. He has had major health issues ever since he had a titanium plate put into his neck 15 years ago. He only found out about this metal allergy in January.

He had the same surgeon that put it in, take it out last Wednesday (April 1). BTW....his surgeon has 5,000 spinal/neck surgeries under his belt. He is the BEST!

Everything went great! 45 minute surgery......home that night. But.... when we got home..... George went down hill fast in the next 24 hours. The symptoms he was experiencing we thought were "normal".

To make a VERY long story short... Early Friday morning (April 3) I took him to our local hospital by the request of our St. Louis surgeon. After his CT scan, our St. Louis surgeon told the ER doctor to ambulance him to Barnes Hospital ASAP. 2 hours away!

He arrived at Barnes 6:30 PMish and was immediately prepped for surgery. His neck was extremely swollen and they suspected a hematoma. Around 10:30 PM, Friday night, I received a call (I was waiting in George's hospital room) from the surgeon that he was still in OR that they called a Thoracic Surgeon to look at him.

When they opened him up it was not a hematoma but green "murky" fluid that came out. They could not determine where this fluid was coming from, nor what it was, or where the leak was. At midnight they closed him up not finding out what caused this event. I was told if he hadn't gotten to Barnes Hospital, we would have lost him.

He was monitored and kept a close watch on in ICU until yesterday, Monday (three days). The cultures on the green fluid were negative for infection. He was moved to a regular room yesterday. I am hoping to bring him home tomorrow but he has some kind of "lump" he feels in the center of his chest that this Thoracic Surgeon has to check out before he is released.

Needless to say it has been a roller coaster ride of emotions and the worst part is nobody can do anything to help including me. Still, no answers what caused this life threatening event.

Just wanted to keep you in the loop. Hugs, Kate

**************************************
(By George...) At one point in the beginning in St. Louis, I was told that I had to have an air tube put down my throat, and that they needed me to be awake... only sedated a little bit. I had my hearing aids out, so I couldn't hear what was going on around me. Everyone had to get within twelve inches of my ears for me to hear them. I couldn't talk to them because my vocal cords were stopped by the swelling, and unbeknowst to me, the docs had given me a muscle paralyzer... I couldn't move a muscle. They did not want me to pull anything out.

When they were putting the tube down my throat, I had the weirdest hallucination... that everything and everyone (about eight people) were all trying to get down my throat at once. I thought that this was the end of my life. I went out very soon after this. I woke up with my hands, feet and body tied down.

Thankfully, the St. Louis team got to me in time!!!

By the time that I left the hospital the second time, the special itching on the back of my head, ceased itching, and now some seventeen days after the titanium plate and screws were taken out of me, a crazy four dozen or more "red bumps" have disappeared from my legs (ankles to about six inches above my knees). The bumps looked like those that are after a tick bite a week or so after removal. Nothing would faze them to get rid of them. I had them for a number of years. Too early to really tell what the removal may be helping, I know. But these good signs are encouraging.

Yes, I would have gone through with the removal knowing what happened, but I would have done some things differently... like staying in the hospital longer instead of going home so soon. Or, have the removal sooner. Or, not have a neck fusion/metal implant to begin with. There is another procedure, I’ve learned since having the fusion.

I really think that the human body does not like foreign material in them. At least, mine doesn't!!!

IMHO, at least for a certain percentage of folks, the medical community does NOT have all of the answers as to reactivity (allergy) to metals, even titanium, and other metals, used today for medical purposes.

Telling this in hopes that it will reach the set of ears that may need the information.
Wishing you wellness!!!
George -- Old Codger
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79 year old, loves to be very active, but am hampered as time goes on. Partial Cervical Fusion in July 1999, C4&5, C5&6; 2 each-Surgicals for Spinal Stenosis to eliminate neuropathy in feet and lower legs-Sept 2002, no help; Neuropathy cont'd for fifteen years; Clue to neuropathy from past history and new found info of allergy to chromium, nickel and cobalt.
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  #23  
Old 04-22-2015, 03:46 PM
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Cynlite Cynlite is offline
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All I can say is HOLY CRAP GEORGE! My goodness, that is the most frightening story. I'm so glad you pulled through. As soon as I saw that you went to Barnes Jewish Hospital, I knew you were in the best hands possible. My Dad was over at St. Louis University Hospital "SLU" for many years for his Leukemia. He was a retired Air Force officer and could have gone anywhere but, he chose that hospital. I'll never know why because both hospitals were 10 minutes from his home. SLU almost killed him. I flew out to find out what was going on with him when things went bad in 2011 and after 10 days flew home knowing he was in a bad situation. The next day with my SUV packed and my dog in the back seat, we drove to St. Louis from Arizona. I spent five months out there and transferred Dad's care to the Siteman Center which is the amazing cancer hospital that is part of Barnes. Talk about night and day. They saved his life over and over until he stabilized. I'm so glad they saved your life too!

Your story tells us all how important it is to pay attention to our body and trust what we "know" more than what the doctor's tell us! They do their best but, they do not reside inside our body!

I am so glad you posted today because I was thinking about you earlier this morning as I read your thread the second time. Trust me when I say that your message is heard loud and clear. I am trying to figure out where to get surgery and know now I need to get metal tested first. I have titanium screws in my knee and don't think they are hurting me but, I know I have an allergy to other metals because of the problems I've had with wearing certain jewelry. I stopped wearing anything but 14 K gold and 925 silver many, many years ago. I read recently that once we have an allergy to a metal, it never goes away!

Coincidentally, a woman I know had to have her foot rebuilt with a ton of metal recently. Within a few weeks, they had to take the metal out and redo the surgery because she was having an allergic reaction to the metal. The incision in her foot is still not healing properly. It's quite a scary ordeal. I still can't believe that surgeons don't check us before they put a foreign metal in our body! I will definitely get checked.

Let us know if they ever figure out what the green murky stuff was in your body! Yuck! I hope you heal quickly George. Be well.
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2006: epidural shots did nothing; 2 surgeons recommended 2 level fusion, I declined.
2007 - 2010 4 foraminotomy and cord decompression cervical surgeries and 2 endoscopic discectomy T7-T8 surgeries; total 6 with Dr. Jho (Pittsburgh,PA) My C6/C7 autofused around 2009.
2013 - 2015: epidurals 3 times (again did nothing) and 4 Radiofrequency ablation (or RFA) procedures.
2016 more RFAs, hit the 10 year mark of this insanity and pain, 3 level M6-C ADR with Dr. Clavel May 19, 2016
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  #24  
Old 04-22-2015, 03:59 PM
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jss jss is offline
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I'll ditto Cynlite; "HOLY CRAP GEORGE!"

Wow. Congratulations on surviving and on the gradual improvement. Please let us know if they figure out the identity of the green fluid.

Good luck!
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  #25  
Old 04-23-2015, 01:02 AM
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Cynlite Cynlite is offline
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George, I say some of this tongue in cheek because my goodness, if we don't laugh about it then I think I'll go hide under my bed. Your experience was truly a scary one.

Since I've had titanium screws in my knee for 25 years, I am wondering if I should be allergy tested for the M6's anyway? If I stay in the states and get the Mobi-C, I think it would definitely be prudent. I assume that since the titanium screws don't seem to bother me, I'm good to go with the M6's but, am I not thinking this through? What are the particles doing to me I wonder especially if I add more titanium to my body? The percentages of people with allergies to metal seem to range from 3 - 10% depending on the metal from what I've read. Titanium is not supposed to oxidize and was one of the lower percentages but, seems that George proved that theory wrong. What the heck was the green goo? I'm going to have nightmares about it now (BTW, no one needs to answer my questions....I'm just rambling as I try to noodle this out.)

GET WELL GEORGE!
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2006: epidural shots did nothing; 2 surgeons recommended 2 level fusion, I declined.
2007 - 2010 4 foraminotomy and cord decompression cervical surgeries and 2 endoscopic discectomy T7-T8 surgeries; total 6 with Dr. Jho (Pittsburgh,PA) My C6/C7 autofused around 2009.
2013 - 2015: epidurals 3 times (again did nothing) and 4 Radiofrequency ablation (or RFA) procedures.
2016 more RFAs, hit the 10 year mark of this insanity and pain, 3 level M6-C ADR with Dr. Clavel May 19, 2016
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  #26  
Old 04-23-2015, 08:18 PM
Dema Dema is offline
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Wow George, I feel like I just saw a Twilight Zone episode. Sorry you had to go though all this, and glad you are doing better now. Our prayers for you continued recovery. You are certain you are not a Vulcan? Please forgive me, and hope you will find out what the Green substance was!
Best wishes,
Dema & Raouf
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7/2007 Whiplash injury
11/2009 Cervical disc herniation C3-C6 (C5-C6 worse)
2010-2013 Conservative treatments (drugs, PT, epidurals, prolotherapy, acupuncture...etc)
, little effect on pain
Considering surgery (typical questions, which type & which surgeon!)
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  #27  
Old 04-24-2015, 03:38 PM
Old Codger Old Codger is offline
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Thank you, Everyone, for your thoughts and prayers.

I sure am glad that it is over!!!!!! [I hope!]

I think that Dema hit the nail on the head when he/she called it a Twilight Zone episode. That sure fits the description to a "T".

I have an appointment with the surgeon on May 12 for a review of my progress. I hope that he will come up with the answer of what the "green murky stuff" was. But I don't hold my breath for the answer.

I had remarked to his #1 resident, who was in charge of caring for me during my emergency (my surgeon, Head of the Dept, was in NYC where he will take over as Head of the cervical surgery for Columbia Un School of Med/Presbyterian Hospital on June 1), and which resident was in cellphone contact with his dept head about me, said that he, the resident, was very orthodox when I mentioned that I would like him to consider metal reactivity after bacteria, or hematoma, as the cause of my problem (belore I knew about "green murky stuff"). I would have liked him to save some of the green murky stuff for chemical investigation. However, I doubt that it will happen.
I do agree with the premise that correlation is not causation, but it sure can be suspicious, IMHO.

I doubt that I will learn. If I do, I will report.

Beware of metal implants, is all I have to say, and do not have a fusion unless you absolutely need a fusion. A fusion, IMHO, opens one up to metal implants, whose ugly head may not rise for some time.

Dodge the "green murky stuff"!!!!
Old Codger, George
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79 year old, loves to be very active, but am hampered as time goes on. Partial Cervical Fusion in July 1999, C4&5, C5&6; 2 each-Surgicals for Spinal Stenosis to eliminate neuropathy in feet and lower legs-Sept 2002, no help; Neuropathy cont'd for fifteen years; Clue to neuropathy from past history and new found info of allergy to chromium, nickel and cobalt.
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  #28  
Old 04-26-2015, 12:23 PM
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Harrison Harrison is offline
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George!

Just a reminder that culture-based detection methods for infection are 160 years old; and they only detect 5% of all microbes. It's almost impossible that there was nothing found.

Many years ago, maybe in 2006, there was a similar story here. I'll see if I can find it. Wow...
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Fell on my ***winter 2003, Canceled fusion April 6 2004
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  #29  
Old 04-26-2015, 12:26 PM
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Harrison Harrison is offline
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Green ooze...here's green bones.Can you make this stuff up?!

https://www.adrsupport.org/forums/f4...*big*red-5243/

People, pls let me know if you ever have revision surgery. I can provide more specialized and capable labs to do the analysis of any removed tissue or hardware.
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"Harrison" - info (at) adrsupport.org
Fell on my ***winter 2003, Canceled fusion April 6 2004
Reborn June 25th, 2004, L5-S1 ADR Charite in Boston
Founder & moderator of ADRSupport - 2004
Founder Arthroplasty Patient Foundation a 501(c)(3) - 2006
Creator & producer, Why Am I Still Sick? - 2012
Donate www.arthropatient.org/about/donate
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  #30  
Old 04-27-2015, 03:28 PM
Old Codger Old Codger is offline
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This color of "green murky stuff" and "green bones" that someone else had mentiond by Harrison, has caused me to do some research.

I ran across a website called "Mr.Titanium.com", or some such wording that held a wealth of information about titanium, but does not accept that titanium can be reactive... at least he does not yet. He does seem to know why and how titanium can have the outer layer colored, and somewhere on his site, he mentions "fluorine" as being the only thing to be able to etch this outer protective layer when the F turns to acid. I have looked into fluoride a good deal in the last three years, thinking that the fluorine/fluoride may be a trouble maker for my nerves. It may ulltimately be the trouble maker for titanium implants.

(Added by Old Codger)..this would not happen in a petri dish in a lab... no F to produce HFCl, so the titanium would appear to be a great implant material.


I suspect that the problem may lay with the fluorine in our bodies turning to a HFCl acid, etching through the protective oxidized outer layer on the titanium, releasing a volume of ions that causes the body to become reactive to the metal... and the trouble sets in over a long time of "incubation". Somehow, as explained by this site, those released ions of titanium turn to a green color.

I agree that this is a very simple theory, but IMHO, it holds some potential. I am sure that the final answer may include numerous more parts to this equation.

Wishing all wellness!!!

Old Codger
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79 year old, loves to be very active, but am hampered as time goes on. Partial Cervical Fusion in July 1999, C4&5, C5&6; 2 each-Surgicals for Spinal Stenosis to eliminate neuropathy in feet and lower legs-Sept 2002, no help; Neuropathy cont'd for fifteen years; Clue to neuropathy from past history and new found info of allergy to chromium, nickel and cobalt.

Last edited by Old Codger; 04-27-2015 at 05:01 PM. Reason: Addition about petri dish
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