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  #1  
Old 07-04-2016, 07:46 PM
GKTM300 GKTM300 is offline
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Default Bertagnoli ?

I finally balled up decided on Germany with Bertagnoli. If you feel inclined I would like to hear comments on him. If what I read is true I feel he is the best. I know every German tool I ever bought still works like new. Thanks

Gabe

PS
I am talking about personal experience, if typing isn't your game call me 315-240-6433 I'm in east coast so please 11pm EST LATEST.
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12/22/04 blew L4-5 and L5-S1 out lifting wrong
4/1/05 back to work thanks to Oxy
11/11/13 hurt back lifting again
6/6/15 last of many MRI L4-5 medium paracentral bulge with juice leaking and mid to left bulge on L5-S1
No invasive procedures except steroid shots that did nothing n hurt wicked bad
9/24/2016 Adr surgery Bertagnoli>1 year doing great
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  #2  
Old 07-05-2016, 01:09 AM
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Fathub Fathub is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKTM300 View Post
I finally balled up decided on Germany with Bertagnoli. If you feel inclined I would like to hear comments on him. If what I read is true I feel he is the best. I know every German tool I ever bought still works like new. Thanks

Gabe

PS
I am talking about personal experience, if typing isn't your game call me 315-240-6433 I'm in east coast so please 11pm EST LATEST.
Gabe,
I chose Bertagnoli and I think you'll do very well. Clavel has some very good play here but Bertagnoli has 30 years of experience doing this gig and a great deal of it; he invented. Good Choice.
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Dec 1/15 - 3 level ADR from S1/L3 c/w 360 mobility preservation at L3/L4 for Spondylolisthesis done by Dr. Bertagnoli in Bogen GmbH.
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  #3  
Old 07-05-2016, 04:35 PM
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Cynlite Cynlite is offline
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I deleted the original post because it seems I wasted way too much time on it. I'm sorry you did not find my post, research or information useful. I wish you the very best outcome possible with whomever you choose for your surgery. I'm sorry you are suffering.
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2006: epidural shots did nothing; 2 surgeons recommended 2 level fusion, I declined.
2007 - 2010 4 foraminotomy and cord decompression cervical surgeries and 2 endoscopic discectomy T7-T8 surgeries; total 6 with Dr. Jho (Pittsburgh,PA) My C6/C7 autofused around 2009.
2013 - 2015: epidurals 3 times (again did nothing) and 4 Radiofrequency ablation (or RFA) procedures.
2016 more RFAs, hit the 10 year mark of this insanity and pain, 3 level M6-C ADR with Dr. Clavel May 19, 2016

Last edited by Cynlite; 07-05-2016 at 09:09 PM.
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  #4  
Old 07-05-2016, 08:08 PM
GKTM300 GKTM300 is offline
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Default But......

I'm not trying to troll honest. But it seems not all information is given and also Bertagnoli takes on extreme cases n pulls of miracles ? No? I don't know I wish I did. A local basketball star used him n many us surgeons. I just like him but Clavel was my second choice. Bertagnoli makes good sense also who knows about the m6 longevity. I agree the lower joint looks very shear! God I wished you would miraculously heal me.....


Ps

Also we d not know the negatives weight or prior condition tons of stuff. But it is scared I'm scared to death!
__________________
12/22/04 blew L4-5 and L5-S1 out lifting wrong
4/1/05 back to work thanks to Oxy
11/11/13 hurt back lifting again
6/6/15 last of many MRI L4-5 medium paracentral bulge with juice leaking and mid to left bulge on L5-S1
No invasive procedures except steroid shots that did nothing n hurt wicked bad
9/24/2016 Adr surgery Bertagnoli>1 year doing great

Last edited by GKTM300; 07-05-2016 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Added content
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  #5  
Old 07-09-2016, 10:04 PM
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Harrison Harrison is offline
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GKTM300, you are asking all the right questions.

Yes, Bertagnoli definitely has more experience and taken on almost any risky case. He does not necessarily “cherry pick” like many American patients are known to do. Most patients understand that this more aggressive disposition can lead to complications that come with high risk cases.

I believe Cynlite was simply trying to help you realize that Clavel's outcomes are more positive, based on outcomes from this forum. Please also realize that her careful, and helpful, anecdotal research is based only on outcomes reported here. It’s not “comprehensive.”

My biases and observations I’ve mentioned countless times:

- Prefer surgery in the U.S.
- Traveling overseas to and fro is brutal. Few can afford first class.
- Prices stateside are comparable or better than overseas.
- Better chance of reimbursement, especially with higher volume U.S. clinics.
- Many spine surgeons have done ADR here since 2001.
- If surgery is complicated, you have NO legal options to sue docs overseas. Some will say you do; but you don’t.
- I love the kinematics of the M6, but do not like all the materials or the keels.

Also a reminder that are many moving variables that make comparative analysis very challenging. A few examples:

- Roles and responsibilities in the OR in Europe are different than in the US. E.g., some spine docs do their own surgical opens – taking the place of a vascular surgeon. This was the case 5-8 years ago, I don’t know if this has changed.
- Infection rates are difficult to track ANYWHERE, and this still pisses me off after so many years!
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Fell on my ***winter 2003, Canceled fusion April 6 2004
Reborn June 25th, 2004, L5-S1 ADR Charite in Boston
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  #6  
Old 07-10-2016, 02:01 AM
Stonewall_Boris Stonewall_Boris is offline
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Gabe,

This is all IMHO. You've chosen your doctor. Now let all the noise stop. Post back here when you had your surgery and feel up to it. Focus on getting to Germany and your surgery.
Just a few tips travelling. I hope you have a companion with you. Try to get an isle seat so you can get up and stretch. Let the airlines know you have a disability, if you have connecting flights they will pick you up at the plane door and take you to the gate that you have to get to.
Best wishes!
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  #7  
Old 07-10-2016, 03:21 AM
Stonewall_Boris Stonewall_Boris is offline
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To Harrison;

You've*mentioned your biases, if I may provide a counter argument; (BTW I am Canadian)

- its fine that you prefer surgery in the US however MANY Americans DO go overseas for their surgery. *Do you think their research into this is wrong?
- yes traveling overseas is very difficult, I was one that could not afford first class and I made it there and back; note take*Lufthansa*in my*opinion. *Traveling, say to Texas would have been just as bad.*
- prices stateside are NOT*COMPARABLE OR BETTER than or overseas <== I'm all ears if you can prove this, really, we spent circa $50,000 for a 3 level lumbar ADR, travel, hotels and all costs included.
- better chance of reimbursement, OKAY. *As I understand it the FDA has only approved a double*cervical**ADR and a single level lumbar ADR. *What if you need more levels done? *Who pays for that?
- while there are "many"*surgeons*that have done ADR's since 2001 how many have done multi level ADR's?
- as per suing doctors I really can't comment. *Under which*circumstances would you sue an American doctor?
- you have the right as to your feelings on the M6*
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  #8  
Old 07-10-2016, 01:43 PM
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Harrison Harrison is offline
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- its fine that you prefer surgery in the US however MANY Americans DO go overseas for their surgery. *Do you think their research into this is wrong?

Using the word “wrong” is wrong. It’s everyone’s own decision. Any “research” is based on anecdotal data. You/we do the best we can reading posts and communicating with others. That’s why I built this board in 2004 – there were very few information resources available to help patients make even qualitative decisions.

- yes traveling overseas is very difficult, I was one that could not afford first class and I made it there and back; note take*Lufthansa*in my*opinion. *Traveling, say to Texas would have been just as bad.*

Maybe, it depends where you live.

- prices stateside are NOT*COMPARABLE OR BETTER than or overseas <== I'm all ears if you can prove this, really, we spent circa $50,000 for a 3 level lumbar ADR, travel, hotels and all costs included.

The higher volume spine centers are definitely comparable. And moreso if patients are amenable to hybrid procedures (ADR plus fusion). Texas Back et al clinics.


- better chance of reimbursement, OKAY. *As I understand it the FDA has only approved a double*cervical**ADR and a single level lumbar ADR. *What if you need more levels done? *Who pays for that?

See above, hybrids.

- while there are "many"*surgeons*that have done ADR's since 2001 how many have done multi level ADR's?

By now, dozens if not more than one hundred. You need only locate the training surgeons associated with the Charite or ProDisc. I may have posted this many years ago. In 2004, Depuy Spine had 1000+ spine surgeons trained in disc replacement.

- as per suing doctors I really can't comment. *Under which*circumstances would you sue an American doctor?

You need only look at the complications that patients have experienced from the US or overseas. For example, the horrible early days of Stenum when they bragged about the “speediest” spinal ADRs was followed by many cases of subsidence. And there have been patients that have died on the table. Would you agree that these cases are egregious?

Just a reminder that these are my opinions only. I posted a notice about being careful about using information from this board ten years ago:


http://www.adrsupport.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12270
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"Harrison" - info (at) adrsupport.org
Fell on my ***winter 2003, Canceled fusion April 6 2004
Reborn June 25th, 2004, L5-S1 ADR Charite in Boston
Founder & moderator of ADRSupport - 2004
Founder Arthroplasty Patient Foundation a 501(c)(3) - 2006
Creator & producer, Why Am I Still Sick? - 2012
Donate www.arthropatient.org/about/donate
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  #9  
Old 07-10-2016, 03:11 PM
Jonesie13 Jonesie13 is offline
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Great discussion. I think it really comes down to personal choice and weighing all pros and cons. As a former German and now Canadian, after much research and some deliberation, I decided to use the Canadian health care system and get my M6 ADR in Calgary by Dr. Bouchard.

So far I have no regrets for my decision as far as surgeon is concerned. Would surgery in Europe been better? I think that there are too many variables to be able to say. European surgeons definitively have more surgeries under their belt but all things being equal, they have no more control over nature. Being risk of: infections, hematomas, subsistence, degree of distraction pain and just generally your body's ability to heal given your age, weight and prior history of back problems.

In addition, physio protocol seems to make a big differences and there are different approaches used all around. Dr. Bouchard's view was to do no physio until 6 week post op followed by a gradual and gentle ramp up in streching and core strengthening.
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2011 - onset of lower back pain during hot yoga
2011 - 2013 Treated with massages, chiro and physio - pain getting progressively worse
2013 - Xrays normal
Dec 2013 - MRI showed moderate DDD @ L5/S1 - modic type 1 endplate changes - remaining disks well preserved
Jun 2014 - became patient at Caleo clinic
Jan 2015 - first consult with surgeon
May 3, 2016 - L5/S1 - M6 - ADR in Canada (Calgary, Alberta)
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  #10  
Old 07-10-2016, 04:24 PM
Stonewall_Boris Stonewall_Boris is offline
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Jonesie13, way to go! *Glad to hear a fellow Canuck got an M6 ADR in Canada. *In Manitoba we have one doctor in Brandon "experimenting" with single level ADR's. *For me it wasn't an option. *When I got my MRI I sent it to 3 US and 3 European doctors/clinics, only the Mayo didn't respond but it was unanimous amongst the 5 that did respond. *I needed 3 levels addressed L3-S1.

Harrison, that was $50,000 CAD for the operation, travel, lodging, food etc. *That also included about 10 days of rehab at Medicos. *Today $50,000 CAD is about $38,000 USD and that was for a 3 level ADR not a hybrid. *Its not that I'm against hybrids but lets try to compare apples to apples.

I do not know about the early days of Stenum, can you elaborate? *And, yes, I would agree that dieing on the table would be*egregious.
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