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  #21  
Old 03-19-2015, 12:38 PM
Cheryl0331 Cheryl0331 is offline
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Default not the impression I get

They also use the Mobi-C at ONZ, so not just the M6-C
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53 yr old female 5'7" 141 lbs. non-smoker conservative treatments failed
2007 fusion @ C4-6 peek cages, failed due to long term use of cox-2 inhibitor
2008 revised C4-6 donor bone, plate & screws
2009 fusion with Roi-C @ C3-4
2015 MRI & CT mjr ddd @ C6-7, segmental kyphosis at C7-T1, 2-level M6-C prosthesis by Dr. Clavel Barcelona Spain
2019 H.O. formed behind M6-C @ C6-7 left nerve rt & in spinal canal.
2020 Revision C6-7 to a CP-ESP prosthesis by Dr. Schmitz Dusseldorf Germany
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  #22  
Old 03-19-2015, 01:36 PM
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Cynlite Cynlite is offline
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A very interesting doctorate thesis is linked to this post at the bottom. It compares many of the discs available and discusses 6 degrees of range of motion while also needing limitations in movement to mimic what happens in the the body. The Mobi-C does not limit the movement while the M6-C does limit the movement. This concerns me as the FDA has only approved the Mobi-C for two levels in the U.S. I will speak to a surgeon about this Monday but, I suspect that any surgeon I speak to will never be able to give me a completely unbiased answer because he will be biased towards the devices he has implanted. It seems in general, the surgeon's goal is for a successful surgery more than eliminating pain in the patient. I can't blame them for this because that is what they are trained to do but, hopefully, I will find the right surgeon who can diagnose the source of the pain too!

I spoke to the surgeon's office that completed 6 minimally invasive surgeries on me between 2006 - 2010 yesterday. They still warned me against ADR and think I should come back to them to avoid a more invasive surgery. My response was well you had six chances and I'm still no better than I was before the surgeries. I've lost 9 years of my life to pain. At best, the surgeries only reduced my pain a little for a short period of time and then the cervical spine degenerated more and back came all the chronic issues plus more.

There is no guarantee that I will be in less pain after surgery. All I can do is look at the statistics and weigh the opinion of the surgeon. The first surgeon I saw back in 2006 recommended a two level fusion but, stated he did not think it would alleviate my symptoms. I very much appreciated his honesty. I did not get the fusion. Dr. Bierstedt did not give me a caveat in his quote and opinion re surgery regarding pain as NJ Gene had but, when I spoke to him on the phone about my leg pain and weakness, he could not say that his surgery would fix these problems. Again, I appreciated his honesty. I am very much aware that the pain in my lower body is an atypical symptom so, it may or may not be related to my cervical spine. Nevertheless, I do believe that my cervical spine needs surgery. I intend to explore all options with several surgeons before I decide what to do so, I hopefully do not repeat my experience of having a surgery that does not improve my condition. It's hard to not rush into surgery when living in constant pain, with hope that the chronic pain will be alleviated but, I'm not going to give into the pain and make that mistake. I remind myself everyday that my mind and will power are stronger than my body and the pain I'm experiencing.

http://people.bath.ac.uk/en1tph/thesis.pdf
__________________
2006: epidural shots did nothing; 2 surgeons recommended 2 level fusion, I declined.
2007 - 2010 4 foraminotomy and cord decompression cervical surgeries and 2 endoscopic discectomy T7-T8 surgeries; total 6 with Dr. Jho (Pittsburgh,PA) My C6/C7 autofused around 2009.
2013 - 2015: epidurals 3 times (again did nothing) and 4 Radiofrequency ablation (or RFA) procedures.
2016 more RFAs, hit the 10 year mark of this insanity and pain, 3 level M6-C ADR with Dr. Clavel May 19, 2016
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  #23  
Old 03-19-2015, 07:30 PM
NJ Gene NJ Gene is offline
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Cynlite, I couldn't agree with you more on the issue of pain. While I know there is no such thing as a guarantee, I would like to think that if I'm going under the knife, there is a reasonable chance that I will get some degree of relief. I also respect Dr. Bierstedt for his honesty on his disclaimer that ADR might not help my symptoms. I don't necessarily agree with his assessment that I should get ADR anyway (M6 at 2 levels) to prevent further degeneration.

It might be of interest to note that Dr. Bertagnoli gave me a recommendation that I only need just one level, C5/C6, done. It wasn't quite clear what device he would use, but he also made mention of removing the hardware in my neck from my previous fusion. To me that sounds reasonable, because the titanium plate really doesn't do anything once the fusion has taken place. It's just a foreign body that is generally left inside most people, because it doesn't make sense to do surgery solely for the purpose of removing it.
__________________
Car Accident 2002 - Small Herniated Disc C3/C4
1998 Larger Herniation and Cervical Fusion C3/C4
2005 Herniation C4/C5 - 40 epidural steroid injections from Oct 2005, - Oct, 2007
2008 - Foraminotomy at C6/C7 on left side
Feb, 2010 - Cervical Fusion C4/C5
Dec, 2010 - Lumbar Fusion L3/L5
2013 - Bulge on C5/C6; herniation C6/C7 right side
Mar 26, 2013 - Foraminotomy at C6/C7 on right side
May 5, 2015 - ADR with Dr Blumenthal of TBI for C5/C6 using Mobi-C
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  #24  
Old 03-19-2015, 10:05 PM
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Cynlite Cynlite is offline
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NJ Gene, here are my notes from talking to his US representative:

"Prof. Dr. Bertagnoli has replaced M6's (poorly placed and sized, not failed devices) with Prodisc C Novas. Dr. Rudolf Bertagnoli, the co-inventor of the Prodisc artificial disc; at his private clinic in Straubing, Germany (outside of Munich)"

I didn't move forward getting a consult from him because I favor the M6-C right now for reasons already stated. Since Dr. Bertagnoli is a co-inventor of Pro-Disc, I'll bet that is what he uses on the Lumbar too.
__________________
2006: epidural shots did nothing; 2 surgeons recommended 2 level fusion, I declined.
2007 - 2010 4 foraminotomy and cord decompression cervical surgeries and 2 endoscopic discectomy T7-T8 surgeries; total 6 with Dr. Jho (Pittsburgh,PA) My C6/C7 autofused around 2009.
2013 - 2015: epidurals 3 times (again did nothing) and 4 Radiofrequency ablation (or RFA) procedures.
2016 more RFAs, hit the 10 year mark of this insanity and pain, 3 level M6-C ADR with Dr. Clavel May 19, 2016
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  #25  
Old 03-20-2015, 05:43 PM
Cheryl0331 Cheryl0331 is offline
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Default what about heterotopic ossification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Gene View Post
You can see his evaluation on Post 28 of my thread "Need some suggestions". I did see a U.S. surgeon in Allentown, PA recently who felt that neither the M6 nor Mobi-C would be good for me since I have 2 levels of fusion at C3/C5 and would need the proper device at C5/C6 to stop the domino effect. There's extra pressure at that level because of the adjacent fusion. It's important to know that I also had two minimally invasive procedures at level C6/C7 which I'm having problems with again.

With any artificial disc, there is a risk of autofusion. Bone ultimately grows over and around artificial disc making it worthless. This surgeon felt that ProDisc or Prestige would be best in my case to reduce liklihood of this. He and other (even ones who don't do ADR) surgeons felt a CT Scan was also necessary to get a better look at level C6/C7. Since I have hardware in my neck from the fusion, it can distort some of the MRI images at that level whereas a CT Scan would not.

Dr. Bierstedt felt that no CT Scan was necessary, that when they cut me open they would see what needs to be done at C6/C7 and decide then. They also recommended the M6, which is contrary to what my surgeon said here. I felt my surgeon had good reason not to recommend M6 nor Mobi-C. I get the impression that ONZ has the attitude "M6 fits all."

I don't want to knock Dr. Bierstedt nor the M6. Many patients (quite a few on this board) have done well with him. Note that what I'm about to say has anything to do with Dr. Bierstedt or his medical team, but about his U.S. liaisons. In my opinion they are clowns. Several of them are former patients/employees of Dr. Ritter-Lang, who has a very bad reputation on this forum. These people will not volunteer any of this info. Kelli was a former patient of Ritter-Lang who happened to be "lucky". Malte was a former employee or Ritter-Lang as well. I don't know if Ken was associated with him.

The final straw in his evaluation was saying that he gives me no assurance that 2 level ADR with M6 will help existing symptoms at that C6/C7 level. However he recommends I get this anyway to preserve motion and prevent further damage.

I hope I haven't bored you to death.

Gene
First off your US surgeon can't get access to the M6-C and did they not tell you that Pro-Disc has higher rates of HO and Mobi-C has had it too...At least Bierstedt can use an M6 or the Mobi. Once he's in there he has options. It doesn't sound like you US doc does....Just food for thought.
__________________
53 yr old female 5'7" 141 lbs. non-smoker conservative treatments failed
2007 fusion @ C4-6 peek cages, failed due to long term use of cox-2 inhibitor
2008 revised C4-6 donor bone, plate & screws
2009 fusion with Roi-C @ C3-4
2015 MRI & CT mjr ddd @ C6-7, segmental kyphosis at C7-T1, 2-level M6-C prosthesis by Dr. Clavel Barcelona Spain
2019 H.O. formed behind M6-C @ C6-7 left nerve rt & in spinal canal.
2020 Revision C6-7 to a CP-ESP prosthesis by Dr. Schmitz Dusseldorf Germany
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  #26  
Old 03-20-2015, 06:03 PM
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Cynlite Cynlite is offline
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Cheryl, I have not been able to find any data on the M6-C re HO. Have you found any? I posted the HO rates in an earlier post for the other discs. Yesterday, I was reading a report about how the studies for HO may not be large enough for the data to have a great deal of meaning. I'll see if I can find it.

I see a surgeon on Monday and will talk to him about the Mobi-C data. Such a puzzle.
__________________
2006: epidural shots did nothing; 2 surgeons recommended 2 level fusion, I declined.
2007 - 2010 4 foraminotomy and cord decompression cervical surgeries and 2 endoscopic discectomy T7-T8 surgeries; total 6 with Dr. Jho (Pittsburgh,PA) My C6/C7 autofused around 2009.
2013 - 2015: epidurals 3 times (again did nothing) and 4 Radiofrequency ablation (or RFA) procedures.
2016 more RFAs, hit the 10 year mark of this insanity and pain, 3 level M6-C ADR with Dr. Clavel May 19, 2016
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  #27  
Old 03-20-2015, 06:36 PM
Cheryl0331 Cheryl0331 is offline
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Posts: 854
Default see some links below

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynlite View Post
Cheryl, I have not been able to find any data on the M6-C re HO. Have you found any? I posted the HO rates in an earlier post for the other discs. Yesterday, I was reading a report about how the studies for HO may not be large enough for the data to have a great deal of meaning. I'll see if I can find it.

I see a surgeon on Monday and will talk to him about the Mobi-C data. Such a puzzle.
http://orthopedicstemcellinstitute.c...tion_Techy.pdf

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/742005_5

https://www.isass.org/pdf/sas11/2-We...ication/57.pdf

many others show up on serach engines and Harrison has a thread on it too.
__________________
53 yr old female 5'7" 141 lbs. non-smoker conservative treatments failed
2007 fusion @ C4-6 peek cages, failed due to long term use of cox-2 inhibitor
2008 revised C4-6 donor bone, plate & screws
2009 fusion with Roi-C @ C3-4
2015 MRI & CT mjr ddd @ C6-7, segmental kyphosis at C7-T1, 2-level M6-C prosthesis by Dr. Clavel Barcelona Spain
2019 H.O. formed behind M6-C @ C6-7 left nerve rt & in spinal canal.
2020 Revision C6-7 to a CP-ESP prosthesis by Dr. Schmitz Dusseldorf Germany
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  #28  
Old 03-20-2015, 09:46 PM
NJ Gene NJ Gene is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheryl0331 View Post
First off your US surgeon can't get access to the M6-C and did they not tell you that Pro-Disc has higher rates of HO and Mobi-C has had it too...At least Bierstedt can use an M6 or the Mobi. Once he's in there he has options. It doesn't sound like you US doc does....Just food for thought.
U.S. Docs have quite a few options. They just don't have the ability to use the M6 yet. Btw, just because I've ruled out Bierstedt doesn't mean I've ruled out of other surgeons in Europe. I was impressed with Dr. Bertagnoli, who told me I only needed one level of ADR when other surgeons (both in the U.S. and Europe) suggested that I need two. I have no expectation of insurance covering this. If it does, it will be a pleasant surprise.
__________________
Car Accident 2002 - Small Herniated Disc C3/C4
1998 Larger Herniation and Cervical Fusion C3/C4
2005 Herniation C4/C5 - 40 epidural steroid injections from Oct 2005, - Oct, 2007
2008 - Foraminotomy at C6/C7 on left side
Feb, 2010 - Cervical Fusion C4/C5
Dec, 2010 - Lumbar Fusion L3/L5
2013 - Bulge on C5/C6; herniation C6/C7 right side
Mar 26, 2013 - Foraminotomy at C6/C7 on right side
May 5, 2015 - ADR with Dr Blumenthal of TBI for C5/C6 using Mobi-C
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  #29  
Old 03-20-2015, 10:56 PM
Dema Dema is offline
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Cynlite, this looks like a brochure for the M6 with some HO info!
__________________
7/2007 Whiplash injury
11/2009 Cervical disc herniation C3-C6 (C5-C6 worse)
2010-2013 Conservative treatments (drugs, PT, epidurals, prolotherapy, acupuncture...etc)
, little effect on pain
Considering surgery (typical questions, which type & which surgeon!)
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  #30  
Old 03-20-2015, 11:12 PM
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Cynlite Cynlite is offline
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Posts: 666
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Thank you Cheryl! The first link is helpful.

Thanks Dema! I found this today also which may be of help to people. It is from 2012 and discusses the Pros and Cons of Cervical Disc Anthroplasty.

Cervical disc arthroplasty: Pros and cons Moatz B, Tortolani P J - Surg Neurol Int
__________________
2006: epidural shots did nothing; 2 surgeons recommended 2 level fusion, I declined.
2007 - 2010 4 foraminotomy and cord decompression cervical surgeries and 2 endoscopic discectomy T7-T8 surgeries; total 6 with Dr. Jho (Pittsburgh,PA) My C6/C7 autofused around 2009.
2013 - 2015: epidurals 3 times (again did nothing) and 4 Radiofrequency ablation (or RFA) procedures.
2016 more RFAs, hit the 10 year mark of this insanity and pain, 3 level M6-C ADR with Dr. Clavel May 19, 2016
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