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  #1  
Old 09-15-2018, 07:11 AM
timsdeece timsdeece is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 34
Default Hi Everyone

Hi everyone, you can read the full story of how my pain developed here:



https://medium.com/@Proudhon91/a-let...or-4895e698378



It's quite long though. A short summary is that I was advised over and over to stay active by docs and a physio (keep running, weightlifiting etc.) and my back and nerve pain kept getting worse and worse. Finally a new set of physio exercises that included one legged deadlifts, see here:



https://i2.wp.com/theprehabguys.com/...15/08/RDL1.jpg


turned my pain from just burning down the back of my left leg to explosive nerve pain all over both legs. Right now I still have nerve pain in both legs, pretty much constantly for the past five and a half months. I've been sent to psychiatry because my MRI does not show focal signs of nerve impingement. My GP talked me out of injections 3 months ago as he said I'd be doing fine in a couple of months. I am now due to meet a pain management doc on the 20th of September to discuss injections.


I am considering ADR. The barrier to access is the flight. I can't sit at all. I don't have very strong meds because no professional I've seen is taking my pain seriously because of the radiologist's report of my MRI findings.



At this stage I would take a fusion surgery. I just want the nerve pain to end and to be able to walk more than 20 mins a day. The rest of my body is so sore from all the lying around and my doctor's reply to that is 'well get more active then'


Oh I'm 27 years ol and from Ireland. I have emailed the usual surgeons: Clavel, Desai, Schmitz.

I am thinking about ONZ and also Dr Ferrandez.
Does anyone have any opinions on these doctors?
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  #2  
Old 09-16-2018, 06:42 AM
dorian dorian is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 80
Default

Well I think you are on the right track talking to the doctors in Europe etc. clavel, Desai, Rischke, etc etc. I would talk to them, send your MRI to them and see what they have to say before you decide on fusion. You are quite young at 27 years old to be having such terrible problems, I feel for you there. Mine started around 33 but started off as a nuisance that has grown to be a day to day burden.


You say you can't fly because you can't sit. Well can you go business class? I go business class, not because I want to spend the extra money but economy class absolutely destroys my back.


Business class you can get the seats that will stretch out so you can lie down, which is what I do, some airplanes are better than others for the business class seats so I would research a bit. Yes it costs more but if you do your research and check a lot you can often get okay deals, but probably still double the price or more of economy.


I would certainly suffer for a few hours in a plane if it resulted in a process to fix my problems.


However, that is in the future. These days you should be researching doctors, talking to doctors, sending MRI, X rays, Dexa scans or whatever they need. researching the discs and then decide on which doctor and disc is right for you.



Do not feel pressured to do anything, there are some doctor's aids that I have found a bit aggressive in trying to get you to do surgery right away. Take your time, research and make an educated decision. It is a big one and it took me personally over 1.5 years to finally decide but some people of course are much faster. I often battle my own brain on if I should do this at all, but finally committed for October of this year.
__________________
44 Year old Canadian
Disc Degeneration (13 years)
L3-L4
L4-L5
L5-S1
Considering ADR Procedure This Year
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  #3  
Old 09-17-2018, 05:44 PM
timsdeece timsdeece is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 34
Default

Hi Dorian,


thank you very much for your response. Currently I'm struggling to get referrals for scans etc. over here. It is a small country currently in a healthcare crises (severe shortages of doctors, hospital beds etc.). All the professionals I've seen here have told me my pain cannot be coming from the disc because there is no focal signs of nerve impingement. So even though currently I am waiting for an appointment with a pain management doctor, I worry that he will also say the same thing and refuse treatment, imagery etc.



I have sent my MRI to Schmitz who said I can come to Germany, but he wants to do full imagery before making a decision, which of course makes sense. Obviously though, it is very expensive and not an easy decision to make. I don't really want to get a major surgery if some injections could help me avoid it completely ot at least for the time being.



Dr Ferrandez said something very similar, that the pain could be caused by the disc but also slippage, so he would like further imagery.



ONZ have said they will not do surgery for me and I am waiting for a clarification for why. I am hoping it's simply just because of my age and because my disc has a lot of height in the MRI and conservative has not been exhausted / not enough imagery has been done.


I'm really banking on this pain doctor actually wanting to help rather than fobbing me off. If they can't help me here, I don't have a choice, I'll have to go abroad, I simply can not stand this nerve pain anymore.

I guess you understand how non trivial this decision is.


if you don't mind me asking, where have you decided to go and what are you getting done?
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  #4  
Old 09-18-2018, 10:09 AM
dorian dorian is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 80
Default

Big Decisions for sure and I am in the same boat.
I am getting a disc replacement l3 to s1 three levels with Dr Rischke in October. It will be a big financial hit to me as well not only the cost of the surgery, but the stay at the hospital, the flight to get there and staying in zurich for a month.



took me a year and a half to decide to even do it with researching doctors and so forth and even now my brain is constantly telling me not to do it but I been delaying this for too long and I am not getting better as I age, so best to get it now before I really feel it in the future
__________________
44 Year old Canadian
Disc Degeneration (13 years)
L3-L4
L4-L5
L5-S1
Considering ADR Procedure This Year
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  #5  
Old 09-24-2018, 10:23 AM
timsdeece timsdeece is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 34
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorian View Post
Big Decisions for sure and I am in the same boat.
I am getting a disc replacement l3 to s1 three levels with Dr Rischke in October. It will be a big financial hit to me as well not only the cost of the surgery, but the stay at the hospital, the flight to get there and staying in zurich for a month.



took me a year and a half to decide to even do it with researching doctors and so forth and even now my brain is constantly telling me not to do it but I been delaying this for too long and I am not getting better as I age, so best to get it now before I really feel it in the future

That's very brave of you man. That is a huge decision. I really, really hope it goes well for you. If you want, I know a guy who had three levels replaced, but it was by Bierstedt in ONZ, I imagine you've heard of him and that clinic. I could see if you could conversate with him? He's doing really great now. Obviously I understand if you don't care lol I just thought I'd offer. Can I ask why you chose Rischke? I found his youtube patient testimonial videos a little odd.
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  #6  
Old 09-25-2018, 05:57 AM
dorian dorian is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 80
Default

Yes I have heard of him and that clinic.



I have talked to many patients already, each of the doctors I talked to I got them to send me patients to talk to, plus the facebook group is very helpful for talking to people that had the procedure.


I decided on Rischke because during my conversations with him he seems like he has great experience and vast knowledge. He responds to my emails in a timely manner and continues to do so and I liked his answers to the questions I gave him. He is also quite known for fixing other surgeons mistakes which I like.



I also am a big fan of the LP ESP disc and that is the one that he uses and has lots of experience with. I considered the m6 and the pro spine as well but from my research I preferred to have this disc. It was not a deal breaker for me as I really think doctor skill is more important than the actual disc.


So the comfort level with Dr Rischke, the disc I like plus I talked to several patients both referred by him and not referred by him that went to see him. They all have positive responses, they said he deeply cares, visited them every day in the hospital, gives them his cell number, responds to all concerns after the surgery pretty much right away.. .he had that personal touch.


Other Doctors I considered
Clavel with the m6 - Liked Clavel a lot, and his staff but he uses the m6, he as not ready to put the LP ESP into my 3 levels yet. His price was much cheaper which was nice


bertagnoli was another I considered a lot. He used the pro spine disc which is the older generation of disc. However, he is confident that just because it is another generation does not mean it is not a good disc, he thinks it would be better for my S1 level and I considered him a lot. I found his inbetween staff a bit aggressive though, through me off a bit.


Dr Desai in Germany uses the LP ESP as well, but I found trying to contact him was pretty much impossible, weeks between email responses turned me off but he is a great doctor as well and they charge the German public hospital prices which is also great. After learning about the Facebook group I see many people going to him and having great results.


Rischke is expensive so was Bertagnoli , clavel and Desai were cheaper. But I tried to not make money my decision. I been looking for over 15 months and i switched doctors a few times, but when it came down to it I had to make a choice and I found Rischke and the disc were my personal fit.


Let me make it clear I think each one of these doctors would do an amazing job but you got to pick one of them if you are going to do it.
__________________
44 Year old Canadian
Disc Degeneration (13 years)
L3-L4
L4-L5
L5-S1
Considering ADR Procedure This Year
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  #7  
Old 10-10-2018, 07:04 PM
GravyBaby's Avatar
GravyBaby GravyBaby is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 132
Default

Hey Tim,

It seems like you're in a similar situation as I was. I'm 29 now. I was 27 when I hurt my back bad after weight lifting. My back was already not so good, but the leg-press finished the job last October. I went to three doctors, all who said they didn't really see the problem and that having surgery was quite a big stretch, even though I was in excruciating pain and debilitation.

It got to the point where I couldn't walk, work or do anything really except lay in bed.

I consulted with many more doctors who specialized in ADR surgery, all who said I was a clear candidate for the procedure and that it would correct all my issues.

I am in the healthcare industry myself and I can tell you with absolute certainty that healthcare professionals often omit or overlook very clear causalities of pain. I dont know the first thing about healthcare in Ireland, but that is how it is here in the US. When I looked at the imaging myself and even the MRI report, both very clearly showed my issues.

There's also the factor that imaging is done mostly while laying down. Sitting puts some of the most intense pressure on the lumbar discs, hence your pain in that position. Since they don't do imaging in that position, doctors must extrapolate from the smaller indications on the imaging, which is rarely done for reasons beyond me. In my personal experience I find it is at the crossroads of incompetence, fear of misdiagnosis and fear of being sued if they're wrong. That may be different in Europe.

By the way, that exercise is terrible for someone in your position. I'm sorry that you had to go through that.

Do you have any imaging you could share with us or the MRI results page? With all personal information omitted of course.

I had a slippage of my vertebrae, grade 1 retrolisthesis, at L5-S1. All the doctors I met with were all quacks that didn't work with ADR. They all thought it wasn't a big deal, but if i wanted to do something about it, I would of course have to fuse it.

Well, 2 weeks after surgery now, I'm walking like I never have before. All of my issues are corrected and I'm only experiencing nerve distraction discomfort from the corrected disc height and postural change.
__________________
2001 - Pulled off monkey bars, landed directly on coccyx.
2006 - Sports injury that made it worse.
2016 - Multiple instances of paralyzing low-back pain.
2017 - Blew out my back on leg-press. MRI showed L5-S-1 disc herniation and grade 1 retrolisthesis.
2018 - Successful ADR surgery with Dr. Rolando Garcia using the Activ-L implant.
2019 - In physical therapy for burning in feet, L4-L5 diffuse disc bulge and SI joint pain.
2020 - Getting better with one-on-one PT.

30 - Male - American
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  #8  
Old 10-15-2018, 12:16 AM
Tomas Tomas is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 14
Default desai

Could you please tell me how to contact doctor desai? cannot find any web page..
Tomas
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5 years in pain with bad discs L4/L5 and L5/S1 (severe DDD, herniations, lost of height. Proposed discectomy both levels but considering ADR.
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  #9  
Old 11-01-2018, 02:24 PM
timsdeece timsdeece is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 34
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorian View Post
Yes I have heard of him and that clinic.



I have talked to many patients already, each of the doctors I talked to I got them to send me patients to talk to, plus the facebook group is very helpful for talking to people that had the procedure.


I decided on Rischke because during my conversations with him he seems like he has great experience and vast knowledge. He responds to my emails in a timely manner and continues to do so and I liked his answers to the questions I gave him. He is also quite known for fixing other surgeons mistakes which I like.



I also am a big fan of the LP ESP disc and that is the one that he uses and has lots of experience with. I considered the m6 and the pro spine as well but from my research I preferred to have this disc. It was not a deal breaker for me as I really think doctor skill is more important than the actual disc.


So the comfort level with Dr Rischke, the disc I like plus I talked to several patients both referred by him and not referred by him that went to see him. They all have positive responses, they said he deeply cares, visited them every day in the hospital, gives them his cell number, responds to all concerns after the surgery pretty much right away.. .he had that personal touch.


Other Doctors I considered
Clavel with the m6 - Liked Clavel a lot, and his staff but he uses the m6, he as not ready to put the LP ESP into my 3 levels yet. His price was much cheaper which was nice


bertagnoli was another I considered a lot. He used the pro spine disc which is the older generation of disc. However, he is confident that just because it is another generation does not mean it is not a good disc, he thinks it would be better for my S1 level and I considered him a lot. I found his inbetween staff a bit aggressive though, through me off a bit.


Dr Desai in Germany uses the LP ESP as well, but I found trying to contact him was pretty much impossible, weeks between email responses turned me off but he is a great doctor as well and they charge the German public hospital prices which is also great. After learning about the Facebook group I see many people going to him and having great results.


Rischke is expensive so was Bertagnoli , clavel and Desai were cheaper. But I tried to not make money my decision. I been looking for over 15 months and i switched doctors a few times, but when it came down to it I had to make a choice and I found Rischke and the disc were my personal fit.


Let me make it clear I think each one of these doctors would do an amazing job but you got to pick one of them if you are going to do it.

Sorry for replying so late, but thank you for taking the time to write this up.
__________________
Make sure you are fully aware you cannot delete anything you post on this website. Be very careful with what you post, and consider that while you feel ok to share it now, perhaps in the future you may not want this infromation shared any longer. You have no ability to delete anything and the moderators do not oblige. I encourage you to learn from my mistake and not use any forum that does not allow one to delete content they have shared.
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  #10  
Old 11-02-2018, 10:09 AM
timsdeece timsdeece is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 34
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GravyBaby View Post
Hey Tim,

It seems like you're in a similar situation as I was. I'm 29 now. I was 27 when I hurt my back bad after weight lifting. My back was already not so good, but the leg-press finished the job last October. I went to three doctors, all who said they didn't really see the problem and that having surgery was quite a big stretch, even though I was in excruciating pain and debilitation.

It got to the point where I couldn't walk, work or do anything really except lay in bed.

I consulted with many more doctors who specialized in ADR surgery, all who said I was a clear candidate for the procedure and that it would correct all my issues.

I am in the healthcare industry myself and I can tell you with absolute certainty that healthcare professionals often omit or overlook very clear causalities of pain. I dont know the first thing about healthcare in Ireland, but that is how it is here in the US. When I looked at the imaging myself and even the MRI report, both very clearly showed my issues.

There's also the factor that imaging is done mostly while laying down. Sitting puts some of the most intense pressure on the lumbar discs, hence your pain in that position. Since they don't do imaging in that position, doctors must extrapolate from the smaller indications on the imaging, which is rarely done for reasons beyond me. In my personal experience I find it is at the crossroads of incompetence, fear of misdiagnosis and fear of being sued if they're wrong. That may be different in Europe.

By the way, that exercise is terrible for someone in your position. I'm sorry that you had to go through that.

Do you have any imaging you could share with us or the MRI results page? With all personal information omitted of course.

I had a slippage of my vertebrae, grade 1 retrolisthesis, at L5-S1. All the doctors I met with were all quacks that didn't work with ADR. They all thought it wasn't a big deal, but if i wanted to do something about it, I would of course have to fuse it.

Well, 2 weeks after surgery now, I'm walking like I never have before. All of my issues are corrected and I'm only experiencing nerve distraction discomfort from the corrected disc height and postural change.

Hi, thanks a lot for your comment. I realise I'm replying a bit late. That's great to hear your story though, it gives me hope. My MRI is here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gqwoybv5f...1MZj9kcBa?dl=0
This was taken in late April I believe. So it's half a year out of date. Pain is better since then but not by much. All I can do is lie flat and go for a short walk each day.

Dr. Ferrandez did mention spondy that could show in dynamic imagery. My doctor will not authorise these images though. He is genuinely trying to push somatisation nonsense. It's very frustrating.
Can I ask which doctor you went with and which disc?
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