No Surgery... Yet

[Jerry5]

I just received a response from my US Representative. There is NOTHING in the pipeline about this M6. IOW, J&J have this company locked out of the US market, for quite some time. Guessing, another 7-10 years.

[drewrad]

Originally Posted by pittpete

Dreward, im going to say something you might want to hear.
This is not personal nor meant to insult anyone here or backpain sufferers in general.
You have a herniated disc that is causing you legpain.
You have an option as far as removing your legpain.
You can have a discectomy.
I've had 2 for legpain over the years.
Both times legpain was gone.
If I would've stopped playing football and basketball after my first surgery I might be in better shape now.
If I had quit smoking when I was younger, stretched more, built up my core etc. I might be better off.
I know many people who've had discectomies and are still doing OK today.
When we are unlucky enough to injure our spines we have to really work a lot harder then others and also keep it up.
I think we look for that magic surgery that will make us 100% and it probably will never happen because of the complexities in the human spine.
While ADR seems to be great, I think we think its one of those magic surgeries.
I'm speaking from experience and I know if I really worked hard I could manage better than I do. It's just hard to keep it up every day, every month, every year.
That's just my 2 cents bud.

Roger that.

I guess for me, I think that if they're going to go in, I'd rather they did me in the front and get around all that back muscle destruction along with the potential for future adhesion(scar tissue) build up which can sometimes get to being worse than the disc herniation.

Zeegers told me yesterday that my two bottom discs are both 80% gone, so I figure go for the real fix now and have a potentially better outcome than if I just get bits and pieces taken out here and there.

[pittpete]

Zeegers is top notch IMO.
Thank you for not blowing up on me about my response.
I so badly want to pull the trigger and go overseas.
For me it's not about the travelling to a foreign country or the $$$$$.
I'm just scared that i'm not at the point were i'm in debilitating pain.
If my legpain were to come back though, i'd probably be on the next flight to Germany.
That legpain is extremely evil.

[Boxer78]

I've spoken to Zeegers as well. He seems very sharp but his eval cost is insane and I've heard of him demanding more money to complete the diagnosis. I was turned off by that immediately

[drewrad]

Originally Posted by Boxer78

I've spoken to Zeegers as well. He seems very sharp but his eval cost is insane and I've heard of him demanding more money to complete the diagnosis. I was turned off by that immediately

It is, but I consider it the foundation for building upon a successful outcome. I'm also paying Laurryson a nice little mint as well as Clavel(smaller). I want all the best minds on this. I deserve it. I'm also obsessive.

Here's some useful information from Zeegers today.

Dr. _______________

For more information on Activ-L and M6-L, have also a look at my website www.zeegersadr.com and in my Facebook page.
The commercial information about these implants on the web is incomplete, there is much more difference between the implants than is published.
It could be necessary to make a combination of Activ-L and M6-L on the different levels because of the implant design and instrumentation.

Now to your questions:

For sure we will need more pre-surgical tests.
If we need a CT-Myelo and/or a discography, that is estimated as Beta Klinik costs, but not yet included in the Beta Kliniks estimated gross surgery costs.
We will send those cost estimates later.
Discography estimate: Euro 600
CT Myelo estimate: Euro 538

To clear why I would like have the freedom to implant an Activ-L Artificial Disc, a STALIF cage or a M6-Lumbar Artificial Disc depends on many biomechanical and surgical issues,
for example: because of the vertical instability, the possibility of instrumental oblique approach and the correction of the lumbar curvature, which is almost impossible with M6-L,
I would prefer Activ-L, depending on the anatomy during the surgery and only if everything is concordant with the new pre-OP tests.
The image below is showing the solution for the oblique pararectus approach, to safe the soft tissues and vessels during the approach.





The images below should give an impression how much freedom the surgeon has in posting the Activ-L Artificial Disc.
This is impossible with the M6-L. The instrumentation of the Activ-L allows also to remove the implant when it is posted
in a wrong or almost wrong position. This is not possible with the M6-L. Therefore revision surgery with M6-L is much riskier
than with Activ-L. The gossip about 'damping effect' never impressed me. In my opinion there is no difference in the effect they have
on facet joints respectively over time. If the risk of facet disfunctioning seems high, a STALIF hybrid construction is preferred.






The combination of the Activ-L with a hybrid STALIF has perfect results on the long term.


Don't worry, a discography will not weaken other structures or 'puncture'(potentially weaken) discs above such as the L2/L3 and L3/L4.
I did this a thousand times and never had this experience. My method of discography is very sophisticated and safe.
To do too little or too much is completely depending of the new pre-OP tests and we will discuss this during consultation with me in Germany.
If the pre-OP tests shows only ONE pathologic cause of your leg pain, decompression could be appropriate to release nerve impingement,
but it is unlikely.

truly,
drs.Willem Zeegers MD

[Boxer78]

Interesting stuff. Bierstedt claims discos can cause DDD. The m6 can restore lumbar curvature to almost any degree you wish, it depends and what angle the doc uses. Have you spoken to clavel or Bierstedt?

[TPatti]

I am 7 months post-op from 3 level with Dr. Bierstedt and doing well. I plan on posting my 6 month follow up soon(been very busy with work). To the comment about a disectomy being sufficient, that may not be so depending on how much height loss you have and/or you have a large annular tear. If you have any questions for me feel free to ask.

[drewrad]

Originally Posted by Boxer78

Interesting stuff. Bierstedt claims discos can cause DDD. The m6 can restore lumbar curvature to almost any degree you wish, it depends and what angle the doc uses. Have you spoken to clavel or Bierstedt?

Appointments with both in early March. I do like the M6.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by drewrad

Bierstedt claims discos can cause DDD. .

Cause? Maybe. Accelerate the degenerative process by suppressing the immune system?

YUP.

What's causing the degeneration?

1. Poor diet.
2. Bacteria and microbes of many kinds.
3. Trauma.
4. Compression: sitting, etc.
5. Lack of blood flow and oxygen.

[Harrison]

Drew, I am glad AND sad that you posted this from Zeegers as it pegged the needle on my BS detector:

"...Don't worry, a discography will not weaken other structures or 'puncture'(potentially weaken) discs above such as the L2/L3 and L3/L4.
I did this a thousand times and never had this experience..."

Dr. Zeegers is surely a hero and great teacher to many, but his ego is well ahead of him here in my opinion (see previous comments). He's writing in the first person and has provided NO evidence that his particular upper or lower discos are NOT injurious.

Maybe he's using antimicrobials or cart. regen therapeutics, but if he is, he aint sayin...

Good grief. These German docs have been outsized in their egos for so many years. I am OK with big heads, but not big heads without evidence. Or with failures. Which all of them have.

Stop the spin.